# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/141 "2014-04-30T13:57:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Heated debate! I was going to respond with an expletive, but since this is GD I will just take exception to the fact that you think the US, Japan, China, India, Taiwan, etc… aren’t civilized. Take exception all you like. Perhaps your outrage would be better directed at their uncivilised behaviour than at my pointing it out. I’m pro-choice, obviously. Again, civilised. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/142 "2014-04-30T13:57:27Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Majority for what? You made the claim that the US was barbaric for capital punishment. **Smapti** responded that there was nothing barbaric about executing someone who deserved to die. You responded that “the only states that agree with him are China, Iran, Iraq, much of Africa, and the rest of the developing and undeveloped world.” Me, noting that India is included in your statement, was just pointing out the overwhelming majority of the world agrees with **Smapti**. Just saying is all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/143 "2014-04-30T13:58:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They need to die somehow. I’m open to suggestions. There’s your problem. They don’t actually need to die. There is this system whereupon people are locked up in cells for committing crimes. It’s called prison. When people are put in prison, they don’t die. They serve their punishment and if and when new evidence shows they were not guilty, they get released. Most countries use such a system, even for murderers. You really should research it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/144 "2014-04-30T13:58:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > We don’t keep people alive who we believe are guilty for their sake. We keep them alive for the sake of the rest of us, those who are innocent, both to protect us from the possibility of injustice and to prevent us being complicit in unnecessary killing. So you wish to prevent a hypothetical injustice by committing a _certain_ injustice? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/145 "2014-04-30T13:59:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There’s your problem. They don’t actually need to die. There is this system whereupon people are locked up in cells for committing crimes. It’s called prison. When people are put in prison, they don’t die. They serve their punishment and if and when new evidence shows they were not guilty, they get released. Most countries use such a system, even for murderers. You really should research it. There are crimes for which prison is an insufficient punishment. The only fitting penalty for certain crimes is the sudden and complete end of one’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/146 "2014-04-30T14:04:12Z")
**Pjen** , this is silly stuff. Maybe lethal injection is too difficult and error-prone to do properly. In that case, we could easily resort to just shooting them, which is essentially foolproof. > **[Execution by shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_shooting)** > > Execution by shooting is a method of capital punishment in which a person is shot to death by one or more firearms. It is the most common method of execution worldwide, used in about 70 countries, with execution by firing squad being one particular form. > In most countries, execution by a firing squad has historically been considered a more honorable death and was used primarily for military personnel, though in some countries—among them Belarus, the only state in Europe today that has the death ... There are legitimate arguments against the death penalty, which revolve around the risk of killing innocent people. For what it’s worth, while I support the death penalty for treason and other crimes against the state, I lean against using it for common criminals. This isn’t one of those good arguments, though. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/147 "2014-04-30T14:04:28Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Me, noting that India is included in your statement, was just pointing out the overwhelming majority of the world agrees with **Smapti**. Just saying is all. So India contains the majority of World population, and everyone in India supports the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/148 "2014-04-30T14:08:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Perhaps you need to look into why it’s so important to you to kill people. Justice. As an aside, it’s unclear to me why what Europe banning things ‘by constitutional decision’ is supposed to be relevant either to morality, or to how the United States is supposed to design their laws. I don’t live in Europe, and I couldn’t care less about their constitutional decisions. (Not every European, of course, agrees with the decisions of their governments, about the death penalty or anything else, so ‘Europe’ needs some qualification here). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/149 "2014-04-30T14:08:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Take exception all you like. Perhaps your outrage would be better directed at their uncivilised behaviour than at my pointing it out. > > I’m pro-choice, obviously. Again, civilised. I find you stance arrogant in the extreme even though I am pro-choice and anti-death penalty like you though maybe not for the same reasons. I find nothing uncivilized or barbaric about killing a man who raped, shot and tortured a teenage girl and then buried her alive as she begged for life. The guy is a monster in my book and the world is better off without him. That said, the death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent, too often is used on innocent men due to the imperfections in our justice system, and is more expensive than life imprisonment to boot; it should be eliminated. But you and Pjen stand on your high horse and condemn as lacking morality a practice that is accepted by the majority of humanity and as been used for our entire history. How arrogant, how fundamentalist, how judgmental! Who the hell are you and what makes you so special that you get to judge the world majority in their desire to execute men guilty of horrific crimes while at the same time have such callous disregard for the unborn millions that are killed every year? Your arguments have not convinced me of anything and I am on your side! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/150 "2014-04-30T14:10:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There are crimes for which prison is an insufficient punishment. The only fitting penalty for certain crimes is the sudden and complete end of one’s existence. In your opinion, but thankfully not in everyone’s. For those of us with more compassionate natures, the barbaric manner in which Oklahoma murdered this individual will turn more people in my direction than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/151 "2014-04-30T14:11:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you wish to prevent a hypothetical injustice by committing a _certain_ injustice? No. If you think that imprisoning a murderer for life is an injustice, then there’s no debating with you, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/152 "2014-04-30T14:11:47Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Heated debate! I was going to respond with an expletive, but since this is GD I will just take exception to the fact that you think the US, Japan, China, India, Taiwan, etc… aren’t civilized. > > By the way, how do you feel about abortion? Pro-choice? Pro-life? Inquiring minds want to know… With the exception of Japan, they are not advanced western nations with a system of rule of law and Liberal Democratic traditions. I would rather support the general moral standing of European nations together with much of the old commonwealth. If you are happier to be grouped with such countries, then that is fine. I would not choose to assume their moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/153 "2014-04-30T14:12:31Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > So India contains the majority of World population, and everyone in India supports the death penalty? No. But the US, China, Iran, Iraq, much of Africa, the rest of the developing and undeveloped world (including India) constitutes the majority of people in the world. Of course we do not know how the people in those countries feel about capital punishment individually, but I object to **Pjen** and others saying that the overwhelming majority of the world is barbaric. Is this clear now? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/154 "2014-04-30T14:13:15Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I find you stance arrogant in the extreme even though I am pro-choice and anti-death penalty like you though maybe not for the same reasons. I find nothing uncivilized or barbaric about killing a man who raped, shot and tortured a teenage girl and then buried her alive as she begged for life. The guy is a monster in my book and the world is better off without him. That said, the death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent, too often is used on innocent men due to the imperfections in our justice system, and is more expensive than life imprisonment to boot; it should be eliminated. But you and Pjen stand on your high horse and condemn as lacking morality a practice that is accepted by the majority of humanity and as been used for our entire history. How arrogant, how fundamentalist, how judgmental! Who the hell are you and what makes you so special that you get to judge the world majority in their desire to execute men guilty of horrific crimes while at the same time have such callous disregard for the unborn millions that are killed every year? Your arguments have not convinced me of anything and I am on your side! I’m pro-life and (in principle) pro-death penalty, though in practice I’d probably be most comfortable reserving it for political crimes. I agree with this about 100%, though. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/155 "2014-04-30T14:13:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In your opinion, but thankfully not in everyone’s. For those of us with more compassionate natures, the barbaric manner in which Oklahoma murdered this individual will turn more people in my direction than yours. Oklahoma didn’t “murder” anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/156 "2014-04-30T14:14:03Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I find you stance arrogant in the extreme even though I am pro-choice and anti-death penalty like you though maybe not for the same reasons. I find nothing uncivilized or barbaric about killing a man who raped, shot and tortured a teenage girl and then buried her alive as she begged for life. The guy is a monster in my book and the world is better off without him. That said, the death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent, too often is used on innocent men due to the imperfections in our justice system, and is more expensive than life imprisonment to boot; it should be eliminated. But you and Pjen stand on your high horse and condemn as lacking morality a practice that is accepted by the majority of humanity and as been used for our entire history. How arrogant, how fundamentalist, how judgmental! Who the hell are you and what makes you so special that you get to judge the world majority in their desire to execute men guilty of horrific crimes while at the same time have such callous disregard for the unborn millions that are killed every year? Your arguments have not convinced me of anything and I am on your side! 1/ I get to choose who to ally myself with personally. I do not ally myself with death-making states. 2/ who mentioned ‘unborn millions’? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/157 "2014-04-30T14:14:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > With the exception of Japan, they are not advanced western nations with a system of rule of law and Liberal Democratic traditions. I would rather support the general moral standing of European nations together with much of the old commonwealth. If you are happier to be grouped with such countries, then that is fine. I would not choose to assume their moral compass. What was the name of that law? You know the one, where all debates end up? Be careful where you set your moral compass because Europe is not all lily white. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/158 "2014-04-30T14:15:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > what I want is a system that doesn’t execute anyone unless there is absolutely no question about their guilt What do we do in the meantime? We could stay all executions where there is a question about their guilt. Might drop executions by 90%, would you be OK with that? I’ll also point out that “no question” is a very high hurdle, an expensive hurdle, and you could probably lock these guys away for life in SuperMax for a lower cost, and reduce your collateral damage to 0, while maintaining the concept of preventing any further loss of life from these monsters. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/159 "2014-04-30T14:15:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. If you think that imprisoning a murderer for life is an injustice, then there’s no debating with you, frankly. It is an injustice when a man who has committed murder is allowed to continue to live. Every breath he is allowed to take is an injustice against his victim, to the victim’s family, and to the entire society that he has attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/160 "2014-04-30T14:16:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Oklahoma didn’t “murder” anyone. Much the same way that the Taliban did not murder Daniel Pearl. Any state or organisation can claim that its death making is legally, morally or religiously sanctioned. Whether it is murder or justified killing is incredibly flexible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=9)