# Will conservatives here reflect on malign ties between conservatism, Republicanism, and Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 4, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240 "2019-10-04T02:57:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/141 "2019-10-06T01:39:45Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Do you want a wall on the whole southern border? > > I can’t help but think of the gun situation as a comparison. People make the arguments all the time that: knives kill too; and most of all that: criminals will get guns anyway, so ergo there should not be an atttempt to reduce the guns in the street. They avoid the issue of trying to make the situation better at all. For instance in making it harder to get a gun, that may reduce incidents. They just deny this aspect of reality. This is because they are against any law around guns no matter what, period. > > Here you seem to be saying that there is such a big problem on the SB that the wall is critical to the nations security. (You are placing it up with the emergency of having trump in the white house itself for instance to someone like me, I am assuming? You won’t truck with lies about it.) I honestly don’t see it. What state are you in? How much are you focused on illegal immigration in your world view? > > Where are you on regulating firearms? That was actually not my stance per se, I was just showing how ineffective and illogical that article was by pointing out flaws in the logic of the arguments. Simply put, I do agree with a wall,limited capacity. In that respect the article may have been right about symbolism. The wall means to secure our borders (plural) much more than they were before and/or upgrade existing infrastructure. If there was as much of an issue on the coasts or toward Canada, I would be for this as well. This is for purely economic reasons and reasons of merit more so than for security. Let me reinforce that, unlike the media portrayal and Trump saying dumb shit, it actually has nothing to do with race. Simply put, The U.S. economy may or may not be helped by it, but it will absolutely help people who are legal american citizens get employment opportunities first. This is better due to a more thorough collection of taxes, better measurement of GDP, and economic stimulus from within. Second point. Why should those who enter illegally get to stay, when those with more skills and therefore would stimulate the economy more so than not, have to wait years to emigrate? Nobody likes cutting in line. Third, Security risks and drug flow issues, those speak for themselves. That is it, cut and dry. I’ve been offered theories countering those arguments but they absolutely cannot gain independence from being a theory. Not convinced otherwise. As my stance and many conservatives on Gun Control its absolute in most cases, the same reason we abhor political correctness, because it inhibits the First Amendment, we Abhor excessive gun control because it counters the 2nd Amendment. The Amendments are absolute and one could debate about the space or commas between the rest and “BEAR ARMS” but it is widely agreed now and throughout U.S. history that is the proper interpretation. I do believe in background checks and prohibition in cases of mental illness, criminal behavior etc. The rest is up to local and state level Law Enforcement on how to proceed with prevention of suicides, and to find and punish those who use firearms illicitly. They are kept for Personal/Home/National Defense (Local and Nationally, Ready for a State or Federal Militia to utilize them and the citizens who own them in case of Insurrection or Invasion) as well as hunting, and sport, collectible hobbies. That being said, very open to sets of restriction if one can absolutely prove that Help will arrive immediately during a home invasion, complete assurance of an infallible military, no invasion potential, no potential or civil insurrection or a government who turns on its citizens. If those could be ruled out and if Gun Control laws could be proven very effective (Take Chicago for example…very ineffective just like other major gun control areas) then I would absolutely agree with more restrictions, otherwise I must take a utilitarian/assurance stance on the matter. I hope that helps. I really do like these types of conversation, as I’ve said, the best discussions go on in The Pit, because it is largely uninhibited thought, no formality. Real. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/142 "2019-10-06T06:18:10Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > **Just a small example of fallacious argument from just one small paragraph.** “There is no **significant** evidence of terrorists or drugs entering illegally through the Southern border. **Most** of the illegal immigrants and drugs coming into the country come in through **legal points of entry.** ” > > I highlight two weasel words. and the last part about legal points of entry… now if that is true, what is the alternative? Criticize it without doing anything? Or improve the barrier and system as a whole. Legal entry or not, illicit goods/smuggling are invariably coming from one direction in majority. It is not as much Canada or from The Pacific or Atlantic, So is the article suggesting we do nothing? Do not try to improve the situation? Leave it as is, with all of its flaws and restrict security through legal points so nothing comes through but have no wall? Where do you think it will wind up coming through? If people cannot get in legally, where would they come in? What is the purpose of the statement (of the likes, the article is filled, in respect to illogical arguments). > > The author of that article should be ashamed of himself. What to do about it is pretty obvious. Take the money that was asked for for the worthless wall and use it to better interdict drugs at legal crossings. I suspect that both parties would agree to that. Building a wall, and making it harder for legitimate refugees to come, shows what is really behind the Trump position - racism. I rather suspect if white people were fleeing oppression he’d have no problem letting them in. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/143 "2019-10-06T06:47:30Z")
Hi, **anomalous1**! The Wall seems to be one of the major points for which you appreciate Donald Trump. I’d be interested in your comments on [the claim that Trump didn’t like the idea of a Wall until he heard an uproarious crowd applaud it.](https://theweek.com/speedreads/816042/trumps-wall-fixation-reportedly-began-trick-advisers-dreamed-focus-immigration) (Sorry, I’m not going to Google for specific cites that prior to 2014 Trump thought Wall a stupid idea, though IIRC they exist.) The link above briefly summarizes and links to [a N.Y. Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/05/us/politics/donald-trump-border-wall.html). > [@](#): > > President Trump’s promise to build a wall on the southwestern border was a memory trick for an undisciplined candidate. > > As Mr. Trump began exploring a presidential run in 2014, his political advisers landed on the idea of a border wall as a mnemonic device of sorts, a way to make sure their candidate — who hated reading from a script but loved boasting about himself and his talents as a builder — would remember to talk about getting tough on immigration, which was to be a signature issue in his nascent campaign. > … > Talk Mr. Trump did, and the line drew rapturous cheers from conservative audiences, thrilling the candidate and soon becoming a staple of campaign speeches. Chants of “Build the wall!” echoed through arenas throughout the country. ```auto On a separate matter, many are disappointed by Trump's crimes and frauds: Trump University etc. What about illegal use of the now-shuttered Trump Foundation? (While others focus on the millions of dollars stolen from that Foundation, I'm more struck by the pettiness of using that charity to pay Donald Junior's $7 Boy Scouts registration fee.) I'm interested, **anomalous1** , in whether you think Trump is a criminal. If so, what are your views on his crime? So far, we've seen this: [QUOTE] Trump's call was of questionable legality (fancy for he should not have done it) but behavior was questionable on the other end as well, but the ends do not justify the means in any case. [/QUOTE] Ambiguous. Anyway, who is "the other end"? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/144 "2019-10-06T10:17:29Z")
Conservatives can and will run whomever they chose in the next election. If they run Trump, that will be their informed choice that they want a populist goon rather than an Eisenhower conservative. The next election will be their chance to re-set their party. If they chose not to do so, they will be confirming the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/145 "2019-10-06T16:32:54Z")
**divemaster** mentioned that his family were Trump supporters and got me wondering if conservative friends/other relatives/co-workers/other people around him have gotten increasingly Trumpy over the past couple years. Also curious what takes other posters like **Bone** or **aruvqan** might have on OP. Um, > [@Ambivalid](#): > > [spund?](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Spunds) > [@asahi](#): > > …and those who posit such anti-factuals should be incarcerated and reeducated. Damn rights they’ll get [taken care of.](https://youtu.be/g_L-ZoCvMAI?t=53) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/146 "2019-10-06T17:06:23Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Thanks for the link, but it is filled with fallacies that ignore typical economic cycles, and how one decision has a cascading effect that may rebound as well. Even the arguments against a wall are poorly constructed and are outright based on weasel words. The entire segment about immigration and it’s impacts is unbelievably short sighted. > > **Just a small example of fallacious argument from just one small paragraph.** “There is no **significant** evidence of terrorists or drugs entering illegally through the Southern border. **Most** of the illegal immigrants and drugs coming into the country come in through **legal points of entry.** ” > > I highlight two weasel words. and the last part about legal points of entry… now if that is true, what is the alternative? You actually think that it is weaseling because it does not point at an alternative? The point stands, it is true. > **[Fact-checking Trump officials: Most drugs enter US through legal ports of...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/16/fact-check-mike-pence-donald-trump-drugs-crossing-southern-border-wall/2591279002/)** > > Vice President Mike Pence said a border wall is needed, in part, to stop drugs from crossing border, but most drugs enter through ports of entry. > [@anomalous1](#): > > Criticize it without doing anything? As the guy from a conservative magazine points out: “The explanation of the problems [from Trump] is inevitably that some groups, in conspiracy with a corrupt elite, are responsible for them.” And that is one of the main items in the article, you are actually trying to assume that there are no implications on that, such as asking experts on the matter on what to do instead of real weasels that do mislead the president. > **[Policy Solutions to Address Crisis at Border Exist, But Require Will and...](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/policy-solutions-address-crisis-border-exist-require-will-staying-power)** > > Closing the U.S.-Mexico border and cutting off aid to Central America would only feed the crisis unfolding at key points along the U.S.-Mexico border. This commentary outlines a range of immediate and long-term policy responses that would more... > [@anomalous1](#): > > Or improve the barrier and system as a whole. Legal entry or not, illicit goods/smuggling are invariably coming from one direction in majority. It is not as much Canada or from The Pacific or Atlantic, So is the article suggesting we do nothing? Do not try to improve the situation? Leave it as is, with all of its flaws and restrict security through legal points so nothing comes through but have no wall? Where do you think it will wind up coming through? If people cannot get in legally, where would they come in? What is the purpose of the statement (of the likes, the article is filled, in respect to illogical arguments). > > The author of that article should be ashamed of himself. Nope, the real shame is seeing using one’s intelligence to concentrate on a red herring, and that avoidance of the points made by just looking at a straw man is the real weaseling here. > [@anomalous1](#): > > As for the Mencken quote, it works both ways. And with many anomalous guys… ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/147 "2019-10-06T17:34:01Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > That was actually not my stance per se, I was just showing how ineffective and illogical that article was by pointing out flaws in the logic of the arguments. > > … > I hope that helps. I really do like these types of conversation, as I’ve said, the best discussions go on in The Pit, because it is largely uninhibited thought, no formality. … > > **Real**. Well that was what is known as a “tell” isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/148 "2019-10-07T00:47:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thank you **divemaster**! You and I would find much to agree on — I also thought TPP was a good idea — even though I’m an agnostic social moderate. I support Women’s Choice but would rather leave this to the states than have the Federal Roe v Wade. We’d find much to disagree on, but it sounds like we’d unify against putting criminals in charge! > > You support Pence. What do you think of allegations that Pence participated in the criminal dialog with Ukraine? It’s not so much that “I support Pence.” I’m pointing out what type of conservative I could support. A “pre-Trumo Pence” I believe I said. And that was based on cursory knowledge. I’m not in his state and have had no reason to really delve into hie entire political history/philosophy. But on the face of it, what I know, I could support such a conservative. Again, “pre-Trump.” Any Republican carrying water for Trump in the last couple of years won’t get my vote. FWIW, I voted for Rubio in the last primary. > [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > **divemaster** mentioned that his family were Trump supporters and got me wondering if conservative friends/other relatives/co-workers/other people around him have gotten increasingly Trumpy over the past couple years. My family is still behind him. I can get them to admit that he’s not really stable or trustworthy, but then they point to the Supreme Court and some of the other “wins” for the Conservative movement. I think they know they are being used. But they (we) are getting something out of the deal, so as long as that part of it still checks the boxes, they will ride with him. And part of it, for sure, is the “common enemy” aspect. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If they are so tiny a handful why are they the voices being heard the most? If the supposed majority of Conservatives didn’t like they way they have been represented nothing stops them from grabbing Mr. Mike and taking control of the stage…unless of course that “tiny handful” is not as tiny as you say they are. I’m not noticing much (if any) backlash towards this “tiny handful” of spongebrains from the supposed majority of conservatives that don’t think the same way. Could it be because you get to keep your hands clean while they do the dirty work? > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Becaise they see no value and no point in attempting to engage in good faith with the mob-mentality of the disingenuous (disingenous in their interaction towards dissent) supermajority of extremely like-minded posters with opposing poligical beliefs. > > But why should those other conservatives who post on this board in non-political forums get sucked into time-wasting, head-bashing foolishness that never produces anything of value for _anyone_ involved? Things such as trying to “correct the record” for all the left wingers here who may have been misinformed as to what the full spectrum of conservative ideology really encompassed. Ha. … > it doesn’t really make one shit of a difference overall because the _real_ kings of mischaracterization and false portrayals of conservative positions _are the liberals here_ who don’t let legitimate debate ensue which may disrupt hive mind tranquility and equilibrium. \*\*Ambivalid \*\*gets it. And regarding post #89?. I have to tip my hat. If I wanted to bolster my point, I could not of posted a missive any better to make my point than that. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/149 "2019-10-07T05:38:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > Hive mind? Gulags? Oh right, you’re the oaf that Googled “left-wing” and found a Biden=Stalin equation or some such. > … No need for hypotheticals, one needs only to look at what is said here to support the idea that, yes, some people on the Left really do want to send people to prison for thinking differently than them: > [@asahi](#): > > Indeed, it cannot be good faith, and there will be a moment of truth in this country when there is a test of righteousness, at which time we shall decide who is worthy of citizenship and liberty, and who is not, and those who posit such anti-factuals should be incarcerated and reeducated. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/150 "2019-10-07T07:30:34Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > Hive mind? Gulags? Oh right, you’re the oaf that Googled “left-wing” and found a Biden=Stalin equation or some such. > > No need for hypotheticals, one needs only to look at what is said here to support the idea that, yes, some people on the Left really do want to send people to prison for thinking differently than them: “Hive mind” implies like-minded thinking. Surely you’ve noticed the Board’s liberals often condemning **asahi** ’s excesses? Anyway, I agree with **asahi** that _criminals_ should be incarcerated. When **asahi** goes beyond that I’m pretty sure it’s just anger driving him to hyperbole. The Biden=Stalin linkage that right-wing oafs here make is utter nonsense; surely you understand that, **Ale**? It’s very interesting that a not a single right-winger here, AFAICT, has dared to comment on Trump’s criminality — they’re still sputtering mad about something, but, in the face of such blatant crimes, are now unable to answer simple questions so just lash out viciously and senselessly. We need a Poll question: “[Right-wingers only please] Which of the following comes closest to your views on the alleged crimes(_) of Donald J. Trump? (_ - So many to choose from, so little time! For definiteness let’s focus on the phone call to Ukraine.) … (a) Extortion and bribery are not crimes when the President does it. … (b) What about the Clinton blow job? What about Benghazi? It’s the libtards who are the criminals. … (c) Trump should be removed from office, and power turned over to Pence. Sure, Pence was an accessory to the same Ukraine extortion, but he — like so many of us — was just hypnotized by Donald Trump’s great charisma and charm. Who can blame him?” ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/151 "2019-10-07T09:35:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > “Hive mind” implies like-minded thinking. Surely you’ve noticed the Board’s liberals often condemning **asahi** ’s excesses? > > Anyway, I agree with **asahi** that _criminals_ should be incarcerated. When **asahi** goes beyond that I’m pretty sure it’s just anger driving him to hyperbole. > > The Biden=Stalin linkage that right-wing oafs here make is utter nonsense; surely you understand that, **Ale**? > > It’s very interesting that a not a single right-winger here, AFAICT, has dared to comment on Trump’s criminality — they’re still sputtering mad about something, but, in the face of such blatant crimes, are now unable to answer simple questions so just lash out viciously and senselessly. > > We need a Poll question: > “[Right-wingers only please] Which of the following comes closest to your views on the alleged crimes(_) of Donald J. Trump? (_ - So many to choose from, so little time! For definiteness let’s focus on the phone call to Ukraine.) > … (a) Extortion and bribery are not crimes when the President does it. > … (b) What about the Clinton blow job? What about Benghazi? It’s the libtards who are the criminals. > … (c) Trump should be removed from office, and power turned over to Pence. Sure, Pence was an accessory to the same Ukraine extortion, but he — like so many of us — was just hypnotized by Donald Trump’s great charisma and charm. Who can blame him?” Lets recap a little, you made a dismissive remark when Octopus wrote “Thankfully they don’t have the numbers in the real world to open up gulags yet.” Asahi was talking about people who did not choose to vote for Hillary Clinton over Trump, namely Isosleepy on post #120. You are calling people like Isosleepy _criminals_ who should be imprisoned and additionally, according to Asahi, have their citizenship removed and “reeducated”. Forget gulags, you people are one rant away from talking about the final solution to the Republican question. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/152 "2019-10-07T10:24:02Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > … You are calling people like Isosleepy _criminals_ who should be imprisoned … > > … you people are one rant away from talking about the final solution to the Republican question. 😕 😕 :smack: Where did I call “people like **Isosleepy** ” _criminals_? I’ve consistently referred to Trump supporters as deluded dolts, not “criminals.” When I wrote about “incarcerating criminals” I was talking about … [can you guess?] … _actual criminals_! _ **Will you please retract your groundless claim connecting me to a “final solution”?** _ It’s not liberals like **asahi** , nor moderates like me who are happy to use force against their political enemies; this sort of disgusting hateful violence is much more of a right-wing thing. Yes, I do consider Donald J. Trump to be a criminal, despite that 12 juror have not yet concurred. (I read that the State of New York may also pursue charges of criminal fraud against Ivanka Trump.) ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/153 "2019-10-07T10:51:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 😕 :smack: > Where did I call “people like **Isosleepy** ” _criminals_? I’ve consistently referred to Trump supporters as deluded dolts, not “criminals.” When I wrote about “incarcerating criminals” I was talking about … [can you guess?] … _actual criminals_! > > _ **Will you please retract your groundless claim connecting me to a “final solution”?** _ It’s not liberals like **asahi** , nor moderates like me who are happy to use force against their political enemies; this sort of disgusting hateful violence is much more of a right-wing thing. > > Yes, I do consider Donald J. Trump to be a criminal, despite that 12 juror have not yet concurred. (I read that the State of New York may also pursue charges of criminal fraud against Ivanka Trump.) Asahi was referring to those “deluded dolts” (Exhibit A: Isosleepy) as the people who should be incarcerated, so when you write " I agree with asahi that criminals should be incarcerated" who should one think you are referring to? Obviously you’d rather not contemplate the notion, but liberals like Asahi are advocating political violence, pushing for people with different political views to be thrown in jail is advocating for violence, efforts to wish it away notwithstanding. What Asahi, Der Trihs and others in these boards have been doing in regards to their complete demonization and dehumanization of their political opponents (or even people who rather not pick sides) is the groundwork needed to create the conditions where political violence breaks out, I don’t see right wingers regularly bringing up rhetoric of that caliber to the SDMB so I’m quite tired of, each time I call out that behaviour, to be met with “but but Right WIngers!”. FWIW, I don’t give a rat’s posterior about Trump in regards to discussions about how people behave here, I care more about regular people and how the treat each other and when morally repugnant attitudes are justified by pointing at a bogeyman as their origin I don’t buy it, I’m sick to the back of my teeth of people blaming their toxic, dangerous behaviour on how bad other people are. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/154 "2019-10-07T11:13:45Z")
Gulags? > [@](#): > > “The US incarceration rate peaked in 2008 when about 1 in 100 US adults was behind bars.[26] This incarceration rate exceeded the average incarceration levels in the Soviet Union during the existence of the infamous Gulag system, when the Soviet Union’s population reached 168 million, and 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in the Gulag prison camps and colonies (i.e. about 0.8 imprisoned per 100 USSR residents, according to numbers from Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde).[36][37] Some of the latter Soviet Union’s yearly incarceration rates from 1934 to 1953, however, likely were the world’s historically highest for a modern age country[38]. In The New Yorker article The Caging of America (2012), Adam Gopnik writes: “Over all, there are now more people under ‘correctional supervision’ in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag under Stalin at its height.”[39]” [Comparison of United States incarceration rate with other countries - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries) The USA has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world, other than perhaps North Korea and China. [List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate) Those stats are koyaanisqatsi! Quite simply, you are not the home of the free. You are nowhere close to being the home of the free. When it comes to freedom, you’ve taken the dumb part to heart, but your dumbtitude is standing in the way of your country developing freedom to second and eventually first world standards. Americans, get your act together before you tear your country apart. Specifically, Republicans, you’ve gone entirely off the rails with guns ‘n’ god and unending, unfounded and unbelievable conspiracy theories. Dump the Trump, run someone like Colin Powell or Eisenhower, and you’d find yourself in the Oval office more often. More importantly, you could hold your head high knowing that you had improved the lives of the all Americans, rather than just yourselves and your financial backers. Democrats, all you are offering is Republican light. Give people a real choice. Have a look at how countries further up the democracy, human development and health indices do it. Here’s a hint: health care for all, education including higher education for all, basic standard of living for all. In other words, social movement. It works. Stop your incessant naval gazing and have close looks at what goes on in western Europe. Get your heads out of your asses and get past your blind fear of people working together for the common good. In short: grow up and put forth something worth voting for. To all of you – Republicans, Democrats, and Americans in general – accept the fact that you are nothing special. Stop ignoring easily available facts because you believe that you are special. You say you cannot have health care for all because you are special. You say that you cannot greatly reduce your gun death rate because you are special. You believe that you cannot treat everyone equally because you are special. Get over yourselves. You are not special. If other countries with fewer resources than yours can accomplish these things, then so can you if you have the guts to face who you are and do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/155 "2019-10-07T12:41:11Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > … What Asahi, Der Trihs and others in these boards have been doing in regards to their complete demonization and dehumanization of their political opponents (or even people who rather not pick sides) is the groundwork needed to create the conditions where political violence breaks out, I don’t see right wingers regularly bringing up rhetoric of that caliber to the SDMB so I’m quite tired of, each time I call out that behaviour, to be met with “but but Right WIngers!”. **Der Trihs** is to the Board’s other leftists about what **WillFarnaby** is to the Board’s rational thinkers. To lump **Der Trihs** with other leftists on the Board is quite disingenuous. My impression — possibly incorrect — is that **asahi** is relatively moderate but is so hugely inflamed with anger over Trump and the GOP — as are many of us — that he lets himself indulge in hateful hyperbole. (I can sympathize as I do this myself — I don’t really believe that **Pence** and **octopus** are literally cockroaches; it’s [hyperbole](https://dictionary.cambridge.org//media/english/us_pron_ogg/h/hyp/hyper/hyperbole.ogg).) It is a simple fact that America’s right-wing tends to advocate violence against their political opponents much more so than left-wingers. (Do you dispute this? Do you need cites?) It is Trump who has literally called on his supporters to attack his opponents. It is **HurricaneDitka** who declared that the mass murder by Timothy McVeigh was “not entirely unreasonable.” Speaking for myself: Yes, I know my level of anger seems almost unhealthy. I think releasing it anonymously here helps me cope with it. _ **But the anger is well-founded.** _ Anyone unaware of how HUGE the damage Trump is doing is, is very badly informed. Anyone not disgusted with the Republicans rallying around this heinous criminal traitor has lost their moral compass. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/156 "2019-10-07T17:08:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that’s a right wing propaganda line, deliberately created during the Reagan administration to deflect attention from their lies. The media is and always has been overwhelmingly right wing, and more so all the time. > > Ah, libertarians; “anarchists who want police protection from their slaves”. Parasites who feed off of society and expect that society to protect them from their victims, who think the only proper function of government is to serve as iron boots to stomp the underclass down. > > Like the rest of his supporters, your motivation is malice. You support bigotry, rape, torture, tyranny and murder. Every time somebody browner than you suffers, it is a victory for you. You are the exact opposite of fair minded; you are cruel and bigoted. > > Not a single decent human being voted for Trump, because voting for Trump automatically disqualifies someone as a decent human being. This is post #89. He is passionate. Let’s see: 1. Yes. (Remember all those liberal PBS shows in the 60s and 70s and 80s…now? Just kidding) 2. Sounds in accord with gist of the the libertarian posts I’ve seen, but from an adversarial perspective. You have to deal with this stuff. It’s other people observing you in ways you might not see. Would you like to live an unexamined existence? Argue your truth. 3. “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.” 4. Well we are in need of some principled trump voters to defend the humanity of their vote. Have you seen any? So this is untested, and unargued as of yet. It is not just a reason like that you wanted him to do “X” and he did it. It’s more complicated than that. He is trolling the nation. So responses to him are heated, and they are the extreme frustrations of those being trolled, in a nation that has succumbed to trolling. Maybe you are used to it but it’s definitely a new one on me. We haven’t had a president who was a troll before and it is upsetting to those in the real and the virtual social media environments. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/157 "2019-10-07T17:15:22Z")
Are there no threads outside the Pit to discuss Trumpism and its GOP fellow travelers? Oh well … [This look at Trump supporters in a poor Arkansas community may give insight:](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/opinion/sunday/trump-arkansas.html) > [@](#): > > People like my neighbors hate that the government is spending money on those who don’t look like them and don’t live like them — but what I’ve learned since I came home is that they remain opposed even when they themselves stand to benefit. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/158 "2019-10-07T18:51:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And in the case of miscarriage, the parents were given the _choice_\* of holding, at their own expense, funeral services (apparently based on the presumption that, at least sometimes, the parents had _wanted_ to bring this pregnancy to term and raise a child). > > \*It often appears that many people (on both sides) either overlook or downplay the fact that having a baby is also a _choice_. I think it’s more that generally speaking, if you have to get a D&C as part of a miscarriage, it’s typically treated as medical waste, and this would give the parents the option to treat the remains as something different. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing; I can imagine many parents of miscarried children might opt for that, especially ones that are farther along, especially in the second trimester. ---
**Author:** ![cutman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@cutman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cutman74)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/159 "2019-10-08T01:22:45Z")
I rarely post at all, but I have to take exception to the Idea that people who have unpopular opinions are immediately shouted down on this message board. I am one of the few people on this board who believes that owning a firearm is a much needed right. I also agree that sane people understand that not every idiot should have unfettered access to any firearm they want. I’m not trying to hijack this thread. I’m just using this as an example. Pleeeease! don’t comment on firearm ownership inn this thread! I’m using this example to illustrate that sane positions are rarely dismissed out of hand on this forum. Using this example, I would like to say that so far, the worst derogatory comment I’ve received is something to the effect of TL:DR, and that was when I got in to the minutia of calibers, lengths of barrels,ETC. What I’m saying in short(too late) is that I think that this board actually is a lot fairer to people who want to involve themselves in rational discourse than most. There are always exceptions. Not really interested in pointing fingers in that direction, we all know who we are. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240/160 "2019-10-08T01:35:50Z")
> [@cutman74](#): > > I rarely post at all, but I have to take exception to the Idea that people who have unpopular opinions are immediately shouted down on this message board. . Thank you for your post. Posts from people like you should count 10X, because you tend to think first, post later. Respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-conservatives-here-reflect-on-malign-ties-between-conservatism-republicanism-and-trump/841240.md?page=9)