# Will cultural Marxism affect Europe more than economic Marxism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295 "2011-06-04T08:42:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/21 "2011-06-04T21:20:13Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > No, but admit it, it does sound ominous. And stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Saitou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Saitou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saitou)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/22 "2011-06-04T21:35:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does this “cultural Marxism” have anything to do with immigration policy? Nope, that is why i’m waiting to see how RaleighRally thinks they are related. Though I’ve seen conservative pieces before, like this [one](http://www.thedailybell.com/1240/Nelson-Hultberg-Cultural-Marxism-The-Corruption-of-America.html), which suggest that cultural theory (from a marxist tradition) is responsible for underminding/questioning our shared christian values, resulting in multiculturalism, which has led to the currect “clash of civilizations” (which we can only win by strenghtening our traditional values) ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/23 "2011-06-04T22:32:52Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > In my Swedish hometown there has been profound changes going on in the last couple of decades because of cultural Marxism. Your Swedish hometown? Are you Swedish and/or are you still living in Sweden at the moment? > [@RaleighRally](#): > > If we compare with the economic Marxism imposed in Eastern Europe between 1945-1990, is it fair to say that cultural Marxism will affect Europe even more? > > I am not saying that open borders and minority rights are something negative, but I am wondering if the Nordic model (generous welfare state) will survive in a cultural Marxist environment. Having a fairly good and fairly updated knowledge of contemporary swedish society I can vouch for the following: 1. Marxism - cultural or economic - is nothing more than an invisible fringe in contemporary sweden. There are no marxist political parties in the parliament and there are no marxist policies in place. Marxism is no more a factor in Swedish public life than it is in U.S. public life. You should be a bit more concerned really about confusing people by disseminating bad information on the internet. 2. I suspect that most Swedes would consider that FoxNews piece extremely misleading (yeah big surprise, I know). From my (limited) knowledge there are some problems in Rosengard in Malmo - which is from what I understand indeed (in a swedish context) an extremely poor neighbourhood with lots of immigrants. But Malmo in general is a nice enough city. The videos linked here are basically a “best-of” of the worst things that ever went down in arguably the poorest & worst neighborhood in the whole of Sweden. What Sweden does have, though, is a small - but vocal - extreme right / racist movement that - while being pretty much marginalised and invisible in mainstream swedish society - are extremely active and visible on the internet. Maybe that’s how you got slightly confused there **RaleighRally**? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/24 "2011-06-05T00:05:20Z")
> [@Saitou](#): > > Nope, that is why i’m waiting to see how RaleighRally thinks they are related. > > Though I’ve seen conservative pieces before, like this [one](http://www.thedailybell.com/1240/Nelson-Hultberg-Cultural-Marxism-The-Corruption-of-America.html), which suggest that cultural theory (from a marxist tradition) is responsible for underminding/questioning our shared christian values, resulting in multiculturalism, which has led to the currect “clash of civilizations” (which we can only win by strenghtening our traditional values) [hijack] You know, going by Samuel Huntington’s “Clash of Civilizations” theory – see [this map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png) – a world state, with an elected parliament, could actually **work,** at least in the sense that no one civilization would be numerous enough to predominate over the others – the world government would not be a Western Empire, nor a Chinese Empire, nor a Muslim Empire, etc.; and getting anything done in parliament would require cross-civilizational alliances. See James Madison, in [The Federalist No. 10,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10) about the concept of a **big** republic as a solution to the problem of a republic being dominated by a “faction” (make the republic big and diverse enough, and no faction can be big enough to take over the whole). [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/25 "2011-06-05T04:46:17Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > In my Swedish hometown there has been profound changes going on in the last couple of decades because of cultural Marxism. Fox news: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrfLjozo8NM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrfLjozo8NM) > CNBC: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB\_U0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0) > > If we compare with the economic Marxism imposed in Eastern Europe between 1945-1990, is it fair to say that cultural Marxism will affect Europe even more? > > I am not saying that open borders and minority rights are something negative, but I am wondering if the Nordic model (generous welfare state) will survive in a cultural Marxist environment. Actually, open borders and the generous welfare state are incompatible. Milton Friedman pointed this out. [In practice it isn’t working for Sweden either](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html). You need to ensure the migrants are skilled and won’t be welfare dependent otherwise the system will collapse. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/26 "2011-06-05T06:55:36Z")
> [@Docta\_G](#): > > What in the hell is _cultural Marxism_? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/DCJG16d4cOk/hqdefault.jpg "The truth behind political correctness pt1") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJG16d4cOk) ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/27 "2011-06-05T07:10:30Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Actually, open borders and the generous welfare state are incompatible. Milton Friedman pointed this out. [In practice it isn’t working for Sweden either](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html). > > You need to ensure the migrants are skilled and won’t be welfare dependent otherwise the system will collapse. Thank you for pointing this out. Now I would really like the American liberals (who adore Sweden) to make a comment about **open borders and generous welfare state**. Will your political correctness (ie cultural marxism) which you imposed on Sweden in the sixties ruin the Nordic model forever? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/28 "2011-06-05T07:20:40Z")
So cultural marxism is the new term for political correctness? When did this happen? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/29 "2011-06-05T07:26:17Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Thank you for pointing this out. Now I would really like the American liberals (who adore Sweden) to make a comment about **open borders and generous welfare state**. Will your political correctness (ie cultural marxism) which you imposed on Sweden in the sixties ruin the Nordic model forever? :dubious: What, American liberals conquered Sweden in the 60s and imposed their rules on it? And I’d think we’d all like it if you explained what you meant by “cultural Marxism” in your own words. Not by posting Youtube links. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/30 "2011-06-05T07:44:11Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Actually, open borders and the generous welfare state are incompatible. Milton Friedman pointed this out. [In practice it isn’t working for Sweden either](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-york-times-on-swedens-immigration.html). > > You need to ensure the migrants are skilled and won’t be welfare dependent otherwise the system will collapse. 1. Sweden does not have “open” borders and AFAIK never has. 2. In general, an ageing population is a more credible threat to the welfare state than immigration. In fact, increasing immigration is a plausible solution to the problem of an increasing dependency ratio. The blog post you linked to is highly suspect. I don’t particularly enjoy doing your homework for you, so I’ll just show you the first case of inaccuracy so we’ve established it as an unreliable source: [QUOTE=Super-Economy Blog] The article exaggerates the problems by focusing on Rosengård, the worst (major) ghetto in Sweden. Yes, in Rosengård 80% of adult don’t work, but for Sweden as a whole the figure for non-western immigrants is about 50%. [/QUOTE] 1. The NYTimes article - while being itself on it’s face being pretty sloppy reporting - claims that unemployment _in some apartment blocks_ in Rosengard is at 80 percent, not in the neighborhood as a whole. That’s bad for your blogger, that he can’t be bothered to read for comprehension. Worse though: 1. “[F]or Sweden as a whole the figure for non-western immigrants is about 50%”. Says who? Him? In fact, going by [this OECD report](http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/28/8/38164205.pdf) (Table 4), we had unemployment rates (percent) for immigrants in Sweden in 2003 at: North Africa & Middle East 22.2 Latin America 10.5 Sub-Saharan Africa 22.6 East/South/Southeast Asia 13.1 Central and Eastern Europe 12.9 North America/Oceania/Japan 8.0 European Economic Area and Switzerland 5.9 Native-born 4.8 That’s not even close to 50%. Our dear blogger has thus been shown to be talking out of his candy -ss. Your willingness to vouch for his credibility should be a bit of an embarrassment for you really **Chen019**. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/31 "2011-06-05T07:54:55Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Thank you for pointing this out. Now I would really like the American liberals (who adore Sweden) to make a comment about **open borders and generous welfare state**. Will your political correctness (ie cultural marxism) which you imposed on Sweden in the sixties ruin the Nordic model forever? 1. Are you a Swedish citizen? 2. Political Correctness is originally an american concept, and it has nothing to do with marxism (of any form). 3. Are you willing to retract and apologize for your fraudulent statements about “cultural marxism” being an influence on Swedish immigration policy now that they have been pointed out as inaccurate? If not, will you supply cites supporting your claims? Hint: your cite should contain the words “cultural” and “marxism” in close proximity to each other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/32 "2011-06-05T11:24:59Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Will your political correctness (ie cultural marxism) . . . The only one in this thread who seems to actually know anything about “cultural Marxism” is **Saitou,** and his description of it (post #17) bears no resemblance to “political correctness.” > [@RaleighRally](#): > > . . . which you imposed on Sweden in the sixties ruin the Nordic model forever? Who imposed what on whom now? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/33 "2011-06-05T11:40:22Z")
Come to think of it, “political correctness” doesn’t have much to do with immigration policy either, whether Swedish or American. ---
**Author:** ![Saitou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Saitou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saitou)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/34 "2011-06-05T11:43:59Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJG16d4cOk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJG16d4cOk) I would love to hear your own arguments, and not just a link to a video. There are valid arguments against the theory of the frankfurt school and cultural theory but that video doesn’t contain any. (the Martin Jay interview is decent enough) The description in that video of the Jewish scholars fleeing Nazi Germany as: “They shifted focus from destroying german society and culture to attacking the society and culture of their new place of refuge” made me raise an eyebrow. And to dismiss their theories as: “Unremitting destructive criticism of every institution of western society wishing to bring that system down” Is just woefully ignorant. However I did enjoy the scorn with which the host says “black studies, women studies and gay studies.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/35 "2011-06-05T11:48:41Z")
Personally, I’m willing to blame Roland Barthes for anything and everything, including sunspots. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/36 "2011-06-05T11:54:49Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJG16d4cOk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJG16d4cOk) Made by the [“Free Congress Foundation”](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Free_Congress_Foundation) – > [@](#): > > The Free Congress Foundation (or Free Congress Research and Education Foundation or FCF for short), is a conservative think tank founded by Colorado beer magnate Joseph Coors and led by Paul M. Weyrich. It evolved from the Committee for the Survival of a Free Congress and the Free Congress Research and Education Foundation. A group affiliated with the FCF is the Free Congress Political Action Committee. The organization publishes Empowerment!. [1] > > According to the organization’s website the “Free Congress Foundation is politically conservative, but it is more than that: it is also culturally conservative. Most think tanks talk about tax rates or the environment or welfare policy and occasionally we do also. But our main focus is on the Culture War. Will America return to the culture that made it great, our traditional, Judeo-Christian, Western culture? Or will we continue the long slide into the cultural and moral decay of political correctness? If we do, America, once the greatest nation on earth, will become no less than a third world country.” SourceWatch is your friend. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/37 "2011-06-05T13:55:54Z")
Some more factoids re Swedish immigration policy: - The outlines of current Swedish policy of granting asylum to refugees was put in place in 1950. The historical context was WWII and specifically the adoption of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights by the UN General Assembly in 1948. Article 14 of the Declaration [grants the right](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_asylum#Modern_political_asylum) to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution. - The Declaration was drafted by canadian [John Peters Humphrey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peters_Humphrey), prepared by the Commission on Human Rights which was [chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights#Drafting) and adopted by 48 votes against 0. The United States, the United Kingdom and in fact all capitalist democracies voted in favor. All Soviet Bloc (that is, marxist-leninist) nations [abstained from voting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights#Adoption). In other words, it should be painfully clear to anyone but the terminally confused that present day Swedish immigration policy sprung from western/liberal tradition and had nothing to do with marxism whatsoever. - In [2010](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#Contemporary_immigration) humanitarian immigration to sweden (in accordance with the Declaration on Human Rights) made up 32% of total immigration (refugees 12% and family reunification 20%), the rest being labor immigration and intra EU immigration. Those latter two of course both being neoliberal (or from an american POW “libertarian”) economic policies, accounting for 68% of present day Swedish immigration. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/38 "2011-06-05T14:48:22Z")
in short, the answer is yes. As many posters in this here thread clearly attest, cultural Marxism not just messes up the economy but it literally turns people into moonbat lunatics, hence causing a deep division in the nation between the normal people and the brainwashed moonbats. Which is a division of much greater long term significance than any Swede vs “refugee” division. Maybe lots of those “refugees” will get deported tomorrow or else leave by themselves, but the moonbats will still be “here”, all over the Western world. ---
**Author:** ![SherwoodAnderson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SherwoodAnderson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SherwoodAnderson)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/39 "2011-06-05T14:56:48Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > As many posters in this here thread clearly attest, cultural Marxism not just messes up the economy but it literally turns people into moonbat lunatics, hence causing a deep division in the nation between the normal people and the brainwashed moonbats. That’s just lovely, Shirley. What are the rules about voicing suspicions of trolling in Great Debates again? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295/40 "2011-06-05T15:02:08Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > in short, the answer is yes. As many posters in this here thread clearly attest, cultural Marxism not just messes up the economy but it literally turns people into moonbat lunatics, hence causing a deep division in the nation between the normal people and the brainwashed moonbats. Which is a division of much greater long term significance than any Swede vs “refugee” division. Maybe lots of those “refugees” will get deported tomorrow or else leave by themselves, but the moonbats will still be “here”, all over the Western world. **code\_grey** , I’m giving you a warning for personal insults. If you want to call other posters silly names like “moonbat,” do it in the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-cultural-marxism-affect-europe-more-than-economic-marxism/584295.md?page=3)