# Will DC or Marvel be the first to deliver a modern female-headlined super heroine movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226 "2014-02-13T08:16:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/81 "2014-03-29T01:53:26Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And a Thor movie is? Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/82 "2014-03-29T19:35:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I chose ‘other’ because I don’t think any major studio will greenlight a female-lead superhero movie in the next few years. There’s too much free-floating anxiety about a potential Hillary Clinton presidency (obviously in the US, but elsewhere, too). A large proportion of moviegoers won’t be wanting to live in the fantasy of A Strong Woman Who’s The Center Of The Story, because they’re too unhappy about the prospect of that happening in real life. > [@amanset](#): > > Rubbish. Utter rubbish. You should be ashamed. Why? > [@a poster](#): > > Yeah, I don’t think it has anything to do with Hillary and more to do with worries over whether a female lead in a super hero movie will make enough money or be compelling enough to justify the enormous production costs associated with making these types of films…a concern I share in the “is it compelling” category. > I think about a Wonder Woman movie, or whatever, and maybe it’s just me being chauvinistic, colored by my own memories of comics that I read versus ones I didn’t , but a Wonder Woman movie just doesn’t strike me as being something I’d feel I really needed to go out and see, compared to pretty much any of the other superhero movies that were good and were made within the last ten years or so. ^Here’s an example of the sort of responses many people might make when faced with the question of whether to buy a ticket to a female-lead superhero movie. No one (or virtually no one) is going to say _'I think I’ll pass because female-lead superheroes make me uncomfortable_.’ Instead, they’ll say things like ‘it _won’t be compelling_’ or _'it’s just not my thing_’ or ‘I \*find something lacking in such movies’ \*or any of a number of other ways of explaining their decision not to buy a ticket. This is human nature. We may not even know why we choose not to patronize some particular movie. But the reasons, conscious or unconscious, are rarely random. They reflect _trends_. Surely none of this is shocking or surprising. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/83 "2014-03-29T20:08:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Surely none of this is shocking or surprising. It’s neither shocking or surprising. Just a load of bullpucky. Your reasoning suggests that all the factors that influence the success of a movie — [ul] [li]skillful director[/li][li]popular / talented actors[/li][li]emotionally gripping plot[/li][li]smart writing[/li][li]astounding effects[/li][li]positive critical reviews[/li][li]existing fan base[/li][/ul] — are negated because the lead actor has boobies. There are certainly men’s rights-types who will stay away for the reason you cite. I’m thankful that in this day and age, they’re a fringe group. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/84 "2014-03-29T20:26:54Z")
Men’s rights types? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/85 "2014-03-29T20:32:45Z")
Both companies have released female-lead comic book movies in the not-too-distant past (Elektra and Catwoman), and there have been plenty of other comic-book-esque action movies with female leads (Tomb Raider, Underworld, Aeon Flux). Gender relations haven’t really changed much since them, so if Hollywood was willing to make such movies before, it’ll be willing to make them again. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/86 "2014-03-29T21:08:10Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > This is human nature. We may not even know why we choose not to patronize some particular movie. But the reasons, conscious or unconscious, are rarely random. They reflect _trends_. > > Surely none of this is shocking or surprising. It’s not shocking or surprising, just ridiculous. Yes, we aren’t always conscious of what drives our preferences but avoiding a female super hero movie because of hating Hillary is probably limited to, well, limited to you. The fact that you are blithely projecting this feeling onto others is probably a good example of the feature of human nature you’re describing, ironically. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/87 "2014-03-29T21:53:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s not shocking or surprising, just ridiculous. Yes, we aren’t always conscious of what drives our preferences but avoiding a female super hero movie because of hating Hillary is probably limited to, well, limited to you. The fact that you are blithely projecting this feeling onto others is probably a good example of the feature of human nature you’re describing, ironically. There’s never a shortage of emotion when issues relating to social hierarchy arise. The emotion is an excellent indicator of the fact that this _matters_ (and in a big way). And, of course, online as well as off, the surest indicator of seething emotions is the presence of personal insults. Humans! It’s probably essential to efficient living that we be so predictable; even so, one always hopes to encounter originality. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/88 "2014-03-29T22:00:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Both companies have released female-lead comic book movies in the not-too-distant past (Elektra and Catwoman), and there have been plenty of other comic-book-esque action movies with female leads (Tomb Raider, Underworld, Aeon Flux). Gender relations haven’t really changed much since them, so if Hollywood was willing to make such movies before, it’ll be willing to make them again. You’re right; such movies do get made. I can’t think of one that was a big blockbuster success, though. Certainly none of those you name has risen to the box office heights of _The Avengers_, the Iron Man movies, the Dark Knight movies, and the Spider-Man movies, to name but a few flicks which trounced the above-named movies at the box office.\* I’m curious about how people reading this thread interpret this fact. What’s the reason, or reasons? Pure chance (that the female-lead movies happened to have had bad writing or bad acting, etc.)? Something else? \*[List of highest-grossing films - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/89 "2014-03-29T22:05:32Z")
Underworld and Resident Evil are BOTH franchises that have had many sequels, a sure indicator of success. I’m not at all convinced of the notion that there is any problem with a female-lead superhero movie succeeding. That said, after watching the first Thor movie I lost all interest in superhero movies. They’re just too fricking shallow. Avengers was nice for the special effects … nothing much else … I’d be OK if superhero movies just went bye-bye as a group, personally. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/90 "2014-03-29T22:16:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s never a shortage of emotion when issues relating to social hierarchy arise. The emotion is an excellent indicator of the fact that this _matters_ (and in a big way). > > And, of course, online as well as off, the surest indicator of seething emotions is the presence of personal insults. What personal insults? Regardless, I could see he-man woman haters club members not wanting to see a female superhero as well as disliking Hillary. That doesn’t mean they hate the super hero because of Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/91 "2014-03-30T00:17:02Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I can’t think of one that was a big blockbuster success, though. Certainly none of those you name has risen to the box office heights of _The Avengers_, the Iron Man movies, the Dark Knight movies, and the Spider-Man movies, to name but a few flicks which trounced the above-named movies at the box office.\* _Salt_ did $293 million on a $110 million budget, which (a) is pretty solid as blockbusters go, and (b) was a better return on investment than _Batman Begins_. (I mean, yes, _Begins_ came away with a higher gross overall – but not, y’know, higher enough to offset the extra $40 million they spent making it.) ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/92 "2014-03-30T00:33:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Men’s rights types? [Here…](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=men%27s+rights) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/93 "2014-03-30T19:42:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Regardless, I could see he-man woman haters club members not wanting to see a female superhero as well as disliking Hillary. **That doesn’t mean they hate the super hero because of Hillary**. So far as I can see, no one in the thread has argued this (the underlined bit. My own claim was about discomfort being generally connected with free-floating anxieties, which is far from being equivalent to “hate”). But perhaps you were just making a general comment. Anyway: as mentioned by others, there are some female-headlined film franchises that have turned a profit (though none except _The Hunger Games_ have cracked the top-box-office list). It’s interesting that the comics world hasn’t been able to provide such successful properties, though–despite the fact that several comics heroines have the advantage of decades-long familiarity. As an offhand guess: Selene in the Underworld series and Alice in the Resident Evil series aren’t presented as “superheroes” as such–as people who are in the business of fighting crime (as with Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Ms. Marvel, etc.). Instead, Selene and Alice find themselves in a world of trouble and fight their way out (to generalize broadly). Similarly with Ripley and Sarah Connor. Something about being a female ‘dedicated fighter of evil’ sits less well with movie audiences, than does being a female ‘intrepid survivor.’ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/94 "2014-03-30T21:32:01Z")
I think it’s just that action heroes fit in better with society’s vision of men rather than women and so a female super hero just doesn’t “feel right”. So maybe I upped the ante with “hate Hillary” but I still think even “free floating anxieties” about Hillary being a reason people stay away from female super heroes patently ridiculous. For your perusal: > **[False consensus effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect)** > > In psychology, the false consensus effect, also known as consensus bias, is a pervasive cognitive bias that causes people to “see their own behavioral choices and judgments as relatively common and appropriate to existing circumstances”. In other words, they assume that their personal qualities, characteristics, beliefs, and actions are relatively widespread through the general population. > This false consensus is significant because it increases self-esteem (overconfidence effect). It can be der... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/95 "2014-03-31T01:46:07Z")
While it’s true that no action movie with a female lead has made as much at the box office as _The Avengers_, I don’t think it’s really relevant. Almost no movie, in any genre, has made as much as _The Avengers_. You’re basically arguing that since the most successful comic book movie ever happened to not have a female lead, Hollywood will never dare to make a movie with a female lead. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/96 "2014-03-31T02:57:58Z")
Well, if the Wonder Woman movie is terrible, I expect President Warren will demand an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/97 "2014-03-31T13:59:34Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Why? Because it is a fucking ridiculous idea. I’m British. I grew up under Thatcher. She was a strong woman and the world didn’t end. ETA: You’ve basically rather embarrassingly let your own prejudices shine through (newsflash: the rest of the world doesn’t always feel the same way as you) and come off looking like a tit. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/98 "2014-03-31T19:33:49Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Because it is a fucking ridiculous idea. > I’m British. I grew up under Thatcher. She was a strong woman and the world didn’t end. > ETA: You’ve basically rather embarrassingly let your own prejudices shine through (newsflash: the rest of the world doesn’t always feel the same way as you) and come off looking like a tit. The evident emotion in your post seems markedly out of proportion with the context. (Which is a not-uncommon occurrence in discussions involving social hierarchy.) ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/99 "2014-03-31T19:44:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The evident emotion in your post seems markedly out of proportion with the context. > > (Which is a not-uncommon occurrence in discussions involving social hierarchy.) #ad hominem ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/100 "2014-03-31T19:46:46Z")
> [@](#): > > The evident emotion in your post seems markedly out of proportion with the context. This can be a difficulty in text-based communications. Emotion or the lack thereof isn’t conveyed very well, so it can be easy to misjudge another’s emotional state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=6)