# Will DC or Marvel be the first to deliver a modern female-headlined super heroine movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226 "2014-02-13T08:16:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/101 "2014-04-01T00:24:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think it’s just that action heroes fit in better with society’s vision of men rather than women and so a female super hero just doesn’t “feel right”. The problem was that Elektra, Catwoman, etc. weren’t very good movies. I remember the old 80’s/90’s Captain America and Punisher movies. They made everyone think that superhero movies just weren’t where the audience was. But the reality was that they just weren’t very well made. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/102 "2014-04-01T00:41:58Z")
i wonder what other genre of movies died because they were similarly not well made. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/103 "2014-04-01T01:05:03Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > i wonder what other genre of movies died because they were similarly not well made. Sword and sorcery - right up until LotR. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/104 "2014-04-01T05:23:49Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Sword and sorcery - right up until LotR. Sword and sandals … right up until Gladiator. Westerns … right up until Silverado. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/105 "2014-04-01T08:42:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This can be a difficulty in text-based communications. Emotion or the lack thereof isn’t conveyed very well, so it can be easy to misjudge another’s emotional state. The post he took exception to was also written at 3:27am (my time). I was either drunk or knackered. Or both. It was still an embarrassingly shit post by him though on so many different levels. From the so thinly veiled prejudice through the inability to recognise that not everyone else shares his views to ending up not realising that the rest of the world doesn’t give two shits about it. Hell, if anything we’d welcome you having a female President, that way you’ll be joining the rest of the western world, where many countries have already had female leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/106 "2014-04-01T19:55:04Z")
Your post is filled with unwarranted assumptions, amanset. Perhaps it would be useful to you to actually read (sober) the post of mine which set you off. You might find that it doesn’t say what you appear to assume it says. Personally, I agree that it’s time the USA joined the civilized world in _many_ ways, including ceasing to exclude females from higher office. (And I say that as a proud American.) We have problems. We can’t afford to bar half the population from making a contribution to solving those problems. Getting back to the Comics/movies question, though: It’s true that a female comics superhero has yet to headline a “tentpole” (successful big-budget) movie. The same is true, however, for non-white _male_ comics superheroes. So, why is that? (And it’s NOT because white males are the Majority in the USA…non-Hispanic white males are fewer than 30% of the total US population (using 2010 Census figures). If you restrict it to a frequently-targeted group such as ‘18 to 34’, the proportion is even smaller. Definitely a minority group!) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/107 "2014-04-02T00:57:38Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Getting back to the Comics/movies question, though: It’s true that a female comics superhero has yet to headline a “tentpole” (successful big-budget) movie. The same is true, however, for non-white _male_ comics superheroes. _Blade_ did $131 million on a $45 million budget, and thus begat _Blade II_ grossing $155 million on a $55 million budget, which is why _Blade: Trinity_ got the green light and, okay, got only $128 million on a $65 million budget, but, eh, could’ve been worse. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/108 "2014-04-02T05:27:02Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Getting back to the Comics/movies question, though: It’s true that a female comics superhero has yet to headline a “tentpole” (successful big-budget) movie. The same is true, however, for non-white _male_ comics superheroes. > > So, why is that? Well figure that Chrstopher Nolan, Zach Snyder, Bryan Singer, and Sam Raimi are all people that can make A-level superhero movies. While a bit subjective, between them they’ve made a total of 13 superhero movies but only 7 good ones. So the odds of even a good director, who can work with this sort of material, producing something good are still only 50%. Then you figure that something like 75% of all superheroes are men ([male](http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Male_Characters) vs [female](http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Female_Characters)), then even if we randomly generate superhero movies with the best directors, there’s only a 1 in 8 chance of a hit. So far, there haven’t been 8 movies with leading women, let-alone by the best directors. The wait could be long. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/109 "2014-04-02T07:57:46Z")
I don’t think the studios make the distinctions we often do between comics, genre literature and video games. As far as they’re concerned, there have been several successful franchises with woman leads that nebulously fall under the general heading of “Geek Fodder” (Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, etc)- they’re not going to notice the lack in one segment of that market. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/110 "2014-04-02T18:49:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > _Blade_ did $131 million on a $45 million budget, and thus begat _Blade II_ grossing $155 million on a $55 million budget, which is why _Blade: Trinity_ got the green light and, okay, got only $128 million on a $65 million budget, but, eh, could’ve been worse. That’s true. But on poor Blade’s shoulders rests the entire ‘non\*-white-male successful comics-based movie\*’ phenomenon. This makes me wonder if the supernatural must be involved in some way to ensure success for non-white and/or non-male “superhero” (using it loosely) fare. ‘Supergirl no, Selene yes’ style of thing. Hmmn. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well figure that Chrstopher Nolan, Zach Snyder, Bryan Singer, and Sam Raimi are all people that can make A-level superhero movies. While a bit subjective, between them they’ve made a total of 13 superhero movies but only 7 good ones. So the odds of even a good director, who can work with this sort of material, producing something good are still only 50%. Then you figure that something like 75% of all superheroes are men ([male](http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Male_Characters) vs [female](http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Female_Characters)), then even if we randomly generate superhero movies with the best directors, there’s only a 1 in 8 chance of a hit. So far, there haven’t been 8 movies with leading women, let-alone by the best directors. > **The wait could be long**. Seems like a fair summing up to me. The willingness of big studios to finance multi-million-dollar movies is fairly limited, and of a follow-the-leader variety. If male superheroes have succeeded in the past, male superhero stories are the likeliest to be funded. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/111 "2014-04-02T20:00:28Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > This makes me wonder if the supernatural must be involved in some way to ensure success for non-white and/or non-male “superhero” (using it loosely) fare. ‘Supergirl no, Selene yes’ style of thing. Hmmn. The _Supergirl_ movie had her facing Faye Dunaway as a sorceress, basically. It was terrible. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/112 "2014-04-02T22:42:23Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The _Supergirl_ movie had her facing Faye Dunaway as a sorceress, basically. It was terrible. So, no. Good point (it’s been many years since I saw that movie, and I’d forgotten). Of course the dividing line between “supernatural” and “alien technology” is pretty fuzzy in most comics or game-based stories, to begin with. I still think the distinction between being a _Dedicated Female Fighter Against Evil_, versus being an _Intrepid Female Survivor Dealing With Adversity_, is important in assessing the likely box office success of a female-headlined movie. At least the track record of the latter (the Resident Evil and Underworld franchises; arguably the Alien movies and maybe the Tomb Raider franchise) is much better than the track record of the former (1984’s Supergirl, 2004’s Catwoman, 2005’s Elektra). Dedicated Female Fighters-Against-Evil have done well at the box office only in supporting roles (X-Men; Avengers). I’m definitely NOT saying that this is the way it “should” be; just that this seems to be the way things stand now. (This is what makes me pessimistic about any green-lighting for a big-budget Wonder Woman movie, for instance.) There are some themes that the public loves, and other themes that the public is less enthusiastic about. I can’t help suspecting that ‘Woman _in jeopardy from evildoers_’ is popular in a way that _'Woman lays down justice for evildoers_’ isn’t–that may be a quirk of our culture. (Not that such things are written in stone. Things can change.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/113 "2014-04-02T23:57:34Z")
Lara Croft might not be a crusader against evil, but nor is she a survivor dealing with adversity that is dealt to her. All the situations she finds herself in, she willingly put herself into. And Ellen Ripley might be just a survivor in _Alien_, but in the sequel she’s deliberately going into a mess of xenomorphs, with both eyes open. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/114 "2014-04-03T01:48:27Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That’s true. But on poor Blade’s shoulders rests the entire ‘non\*-white-male successful comics-based movie\*’ phenomenon. Do we get to count Antonio Banderas playing Zorro? And while Will Smith’s blockbuster superhero outing as _Hancock_ doesn’t count the way you’re phrasing it, he kinda sorta got there as Agent K of the _Men In Black_: the guy’s leading-man role as either led to a $624-million-a-pop gross each time. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/115 "2014-04-03T04:52:08Z")
it is going to be neither Marvel nor DC - [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLERVsu1O8) but it will be Scarlett Johansson. a brand new superhero is as good as any, though it likely means it won’t turn into a franchise. this time, she won’t be hobbled by a puny pistol. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/116 "2014-04-03T06:49:27Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > it is going to be neither Marvel nor DC - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLERVsu1O8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLERVsu1O8) > > but it will be Scarlett Johansson. a brand new superhero is as good as any, though it likely means it won’t turn into a franchise. this time, she won’t be hobbled by a puny pistol. Well, that looks fucking awesome, and I had no idea it was even in development… …but I’d hesitate to call it a “superhero” movie. More like action SF. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/117 "2014-04-03T08:09:42Z")
well, it does have the whole cliched superhero origin… all it will need if it is a box-office hit is a super villain for the sequel. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/118 "2014-04-03T09:28:38Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > well, it does have the whole cliched superhero origin… all it will need if it is a box-office hit is a super villain for the sequel. I don’t know - it’s more like Limitless or the Bourne Legacy - it doesn’t hit all the high notes of a superhero film - no costumes, aliases, world-saving. Hell, if it is a super- movie, she’s no _hero_ - i mean, she flat-out blows away that one cabbie for no good reason other than _pour encourager les autres_. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/119 "2014-04-03T15:36:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, that looks fucking awesome, and I had no idea it was even in development… > > …but I’d hesitate to call it a “superhero” movie. More like action SF. How is she not a superhero? She’s clearly got super powers. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/120 "2014-04-03T16:02:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > How is she not a superhero? She’s clearly got super powers. She’s also clearly not a hero. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=7)