# Will DC or Marvel be the first to deliver a modern female-headlined super heroine movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226 "2014-02-13T08:16:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/141 "2014-04-04T00:54:14Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > (This is all concerning English-language movies. I have no idea what might be the case in, say, the Chinese market.) I believe that Michelle Yeoh had some reasonably big hits. She was never as big as Jackie Chan, but she was one of the top performers in Hong Kong. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/142 "2014-04-04T00:55:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …and if they\* fought for the public good\* they’d be a superhero (e.g. Supergirl, Powergirl [sometimes] etc.) well then - Spock has done his fair share fighting for the public good. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/143 "2014-04-04T01:57:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s the one thing that’s giving me pause about that movie. Scarlett Johannson running around as an action hero? Great! And of course, Morgan Freeman is always worth watching. But they’re trotting out that long-debunked old canard about 10% of our brain? Ugh. I use 90 percent of my brain … for porn … ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/144 "2014-04-04T08:30:17Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > well then - Spock has done his fair share fighting for the public good. …and if Spock was unusual in his milieu, he’d be a superhero. But he isn’t. He’s just a military functionary. I don’t know why you feel the need to draw these kind of bright lines. Superheroes are superheroes because of their total basket of characteristics, including the overall settings of their stories. This is why, say, Spock, a powerful alien, isn’t a superhero but Superman, a powerful alien, is. Are Jedi superheroes? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/145 "2014-04-04T08:31:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s the one thing that’s giving me pause about that movie. […] But they’re trotting out that long-debunked old canard about 10% of our brain? Ugh. Meh! for me. If I can get over FTL, I can get over this. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/146 "2014-04-04T12:47:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …and if Spock was unusual in his milieu, he’d be a superhero. But he isn’t. He’s just a military functionary. … i think there will be some who will disagree with you, Spock is surely one of a kind. But i’m just yanking your chain. in my defence, this serves to illustrate the kind of lines that i believe the majority of viewers just aren’t very much interested about or be even aware of. for my movie dollars, Black Widow and Lucy are the same genre - science fiction where awesome ensues. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/147 "2014-04-04T13:51:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are Jedi superheroes? If Green Lanterns are superheroes, I see no justification for Jedi not being superheroes, too. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/148 "2014-04-04T14:29:29Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > It looks like Marvel’s Avengers 2 is supposed to lead into a Black Widow movie. > > [Will Avengers 2 pave the way for Black Panther and Black Widow movies?](http://io9.com/will-avengers-2-pave-the-way-for-black-panther-and-blac-1522535341) Pretty much confirmed in [today’s article](http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-03/kevin-feige-marvels-superhero-at-running-movie-franchises#p1) in Business Week. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/149 "2014-04-04T15:07:22Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > If Green Lanterns are superheroes, I see no justification for Jedi not being superheroes, too. Y’know, there’s probably someone somewhere who’d say Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu and the rest weren’t superheroes back when Obi-Wan and Yoda were hanging out with a bunch of 'em, but that Luke Skywalker qualifies once he’s the Last Jedi Standing. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/150 "2014-04-04T19:13:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Superheroes are superheroes because of their total basket of characteristics, including the overall settings of their stories. **This is why, say, Spock, a powerful alien, isn’t a superhero but Superman, a powerful alien, is.** It would simplify things if we’d just agree that the crucial factor is “spandex.” Loose clothing: not a superhero. Tight clothing: yes, superhero! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/151 "2014-04-04T19:34:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It would simplify things if we’d just agree that the crucial factor is “spandex.” What superhero wears spandex in movies nowadays? X-Men were in leather, Iron Man in power armor, Batman and Captain America in bodyarmor, Thor in Kirby armor, new Superman in a Kryptonian jumpsuit, Green Lantern in CGI… the new Star Trek uniforms are just as spandexy as those (I miss the ST II uniforms). And if the criterion is tightness of fit, then Selene from _Underworld_ is the superest superheroine of them all! This is actually an interesting question, though: should _Guardians of the Galaxy_ be considered a superhero movie or just a sci-fi movie? (Really, I agree that these are all distinctions that both the studios and most of the audiences don’t actually make.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/152 "2014-04-04T21:01:25Z")
“Superhero” has a number of traits identified with it, but is tricky in that a particular character does not have to have all of the traits to fit the definition. I think having two of the following three qualities is probably enough to qualify one as a superhero: A superhero is someone who: 1. Is a vigilante. 2. Wears an unusual costume, by the standards of his setting. 3. Has some sort of unusual power, by the standards of his setting. Is Spider-Man a superhero? Yes, he hits all three criteria. Is Batman? Also yes - he misses on the third, but the first two are enough. Is Spock? No. His outfit is not unusual by the standards of the setting, and neither are his powers - he has the same abilities as any other Vulcan. Likewise, Note that “standards of the setting” is fairly malleable. Superman doesn’t have any unusual powers for a Kryptonian, but his stories are not (for the most part) set on Krypton. They’re set on Earth, where there’s never more than four or five living Kryptonians, depending on continuity. The same holds true for Green Lantern, _when he’s on Earth_. When he’s out on Oa, or other alien worlds, he’s in a setting where he’s wearing a recognizable uniform and exercising duly granted legal authority - and technically would not be a superhero in those comics. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/153 "2014-04-04T21:06:16Z")
I would probably be a bit more specific with the outfit. Specifically, superheroes wear outfits that are descended from the designs of early 20th century carnival wrestlers. (Superheroes and WWE share the same lineage.) ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/154 "2014-04-04T22:32:11Z")
[This image](http://superdames.tumblr.com/image/81701249601) speaks so much about DC’s prioritization of it’s “big three.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/155 "2014-04-05T00:13:05Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > [This image](http://superdames.tumblr.com/image/81701249601) speaks so much about DC’s prioritization of it’s “big three.” Cathy Lee Crosby should be to Lynda Carter’s right, but no matter. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/156 "2014-04-05T00:36:03Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > What superhero wears spandex in movies nowadays? X-Men were in leather, Iron Man in power armor, Batman and Captain America in bodyarmor, Thor in Kirby armor, new Superman in a Kryptonian jumpsuit, Green Lantern in CGI… the new Star Trek uniforms are just as spandexy as those (I miss the ST II uniforms). Spider-Man’s costume in The Amazing Spider-Man was a neoprene diving suit. Is that close enough? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/157 "2014-04-05T01:11:58Z")
**Miller** , what about Black Widow, then? She’s not a vigilante (she’s acting under the authority of a recognized governmental body), and she has no particular superhuman powers. I guess her outfit is unusual, but that’s still only one out of three. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/158 "2014-04-05T02:04:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Miller** , what about Black Widow, then? She’s not a vigilante (she’s acting under the authority of a recognized governmental body), and she has no particular superhuman powers. I guess her outfit is unusual, but that’s still only one out of three. First, Black Widow is a member of the Avengers - a team of superheros. Yeah, she and Hawkeye are also SHIELD agents but as the team is a SHIELD project you could say everyone is to some extent allied with them. In the Marvel-verse, she dated Daredevil/Matt Murdock and partnered with him as the Black Widow, acting in that capacity as a superhero. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/159 "2014-04-05T02:27:39Z")
In the Marvel-verse, after Captain America went missing near the end of WWII, the authorities tapped a non-serum-enhanced patriot to wear the star-spangled costume while carrying out President Truman’s orders. (So, y’know, like the Comedian, only without being a dick.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226/160 "2014-04-05T03:02:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A superhero is someone who: > > 1. Is a vigilante. > > 2. Wears an unusual costume, by the standards of his setting. > > 3. Has some sort of unusual power, by the standards of his setting. Zorro is in, then. Riddick, from _Pitch Black_, is a vigilante with an unusual power by the standards of his setting. Neo, from _the Matrix_, probably fits all three. If we accept knowledge and training as an “unusual power” – which is how Batman gets in, after all – then Indiana Jones and Lara Croft are in, too. And as you noted, your criteria don’t work for Green Lantern, despite your hand-waiving the discrepancy away. “Superhero” vs. “action hero” is a know-it-when-I-see-it kind of distinction, which makes it useless for comparison when trying to evaluate what kind of movie will or will not work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-dc-or-marvel-be-the-first-to-deliver-a-modern-female-headlined-super-heroine-movie/681226.md?page=9)