# Will Democrats figure out and fix why they're losing locally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 11, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948 "2013-08-11T18:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/161 "2013-08-15T17:42:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I tried, I mentioned how bad Democrats run cities. That has to contribute to their failures in the suburbs. People don’t flee those cities just to elect more Democrats. Yes they do. I live in Fairfax County VA. The county Boards of Supervisors, while nominally non-partisan, is nearly all Dems. We have great schools, roads as good as we can given VA’s budget realities, honest and efficient government. Taxes are high, but not that much higher than neighboring jurisdictions with less good schools. The Board’s been majority Dem for years, and the governance has been good to great that whole time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/162 "2013-08-15T18:48:17Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Who was that poster that we had for a while that always used to talk about how there weren’t really any serious problems in Soviet Russia and that they were just misunderstood? [insert your own Yakov Smirnoff joke here] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/163 "2013-08-15T18:57:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This was Howard Dean’s idea, and it sorta worked, sorta didn’t. Resources are always limited, so you have to prioritize. That’s one of the big problems with liberals in general, they deny the need to ever make tough choices. We can have it all! We can spend millions in New Hampshire and millions in Texas! Both parties talk about 50 state strategies, but once the campaigns get going and you realize you don’t have enough money to fight everywhere, the tough choices have to be made. I don’t think establishing grassroots campaigns in all 50 states is all that expensive. It’s the big media buys that are expensive. The Democrats will have to be careful there, to a much greater extent than the Republicans, but it WILL force the Republicans to spend, spend, spend. > [@](#): > > The problem with the Greens is that they are an ideologically liberal party and there’s no space for an ideologically liberal party in this country. Instead, the Democratic Party is a collection of interests and none of those interests are “interested” in the Green Party, which would put ideology and this weird thing called principle above the base interests of the various interest groups. This is where you and I part ways. The American people are much more pragmatic and progressive than you think they are. **Brainglutton** has some nice cites along those lines. And they will get nothing but MORE progressive as the One Percent continue their economi rapine of the middle class. [Here’s a nifty article for you to think about](http://www.moneynews.com/Economy/AP-American-dream-economic/2013/07/28/id/517396). This will make progressivism grow WAY faster than any amount of ad buys, and at the grassroots where it can affect state and local elections, especially. Because they are not NEARLY so ideologically oriented as federal elections. > [@](#): > > I say they already are as nasty and personal as you can get. But going along with your argument, isn’t the perception that Republicans are nasty one of the reasons they lose? Sounds to me like being better at being nasty is a double-edged sword. It’s not nastiness that makes people mad at Republicans, it’s their bigotry, racism, sexism and obstructionism. Ever so nicely expressed, it still sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/164 "2013-08-15T19:20:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > With Democrats, it appears to just be a collection of principles that shift depending on the short term wants of their various interest groups. Otherwise known as ‘Americans’. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/165 "2013-08-15T20:39:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I say they already are as nasty and personal as you can get. But going along with your argument, isn’t the perception that Republicans are nasty one of the reasons they lose? Sounds to me like being better at being nasty is a double-edged sword. Nasty wrong and nasty right are two wholly different things. Voters see through the GOP BS because they are hyperpartisan and stupidly incorrect all the time, like calling a woman who wants birth control a slut, or saying one of their numerous things about rape, or paying off debts with chickens. Democrats can get nasty and still be right, and I think they should do it. Being nasty isn’t entirely about being mean, its about not letting up and making sure you pounce on every little thing. When you’re wrong, it makes you look like a mean jerk. When you’re right, it makes you look determined. The Democrats have the advantage of being right most of the time and that would translate into a great nasty campaign ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/166 "2013-08-15T20:51:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > going along with your argument, isn’t the perception that Republicans are nasty one of the reasons they lose? No, it’s one of the reasons they don’t lose their base. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/167 "2013-08-15T22:18:51Z")
To have a local strategy it might help if you actually wanted to accomplish things at the local level instead of attempting to gain national hegemony so you can bring 100% of the populace under your social-democrat fist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/168 "2013-08-15T22:24:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > To have a local strategy it might help if you actually wanted to accomplish things at the local level instead of attempting to gain national hegemony so you can bring 100% of the populace under your social-democrat fist. Oh, there have always been things lefties find worth doing [at the local level](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer_Socialism=). Millions of Americans today enjoy the fruits of those things without realizing who brought them. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > . . . social-democrat fist. Do you have any idea how amusing it is to see those words combined? Nobody thinks of Sweden and pictures a fist. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/169 "2013-08-15T23:42:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh geez. that’s not how it’s going to happen. but it does address a point about the Democrats being only a collection of interest groups. If you can’t persuade people, then you have to increase the size of your interest groups. You need more poor people, mainly. > > The rest of the groups, minorities, gays, young people, women, those have all been won by Republicans to some degree or another and can be again. Forget that, WILL be again. the only intractable group that Republicans simply can’t appeal to is the poor. And fixing that problem is easy: make sure there are fewer poor people. Democrats have the opposite incentive. Republican policies _create_ poverty. The old New Dealers diminished it, while present Democrats (DLC, Clinton/Obama “Blue Dogs”) seem to be (literally, small _c_) conservatively holding steady, if they do anything at all. As for the rest: Scarcity creates aggression. Aggression finds scapegoats, purges are carried out. We need only look at Rwanda and Yugoslavia in the 1990’s to see Christian nations turn to genocide. The rhetoric is already there. The radio network to disseminate propaganda and give marching orders–exactly like Rwanda–is certainly already there. A study of history leads us to this conclusion. There will be purges to maintain power. They will be concocted on pretended “Christian” or “civilization-defending” premises. The rest is details. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/170 "2013-08-16T00:05:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The fact remains, however, that the country is split 50-50 on abortion. Two pro-choice parties would make no sense. :rolleyes: OK, let me back away from my morbid projections of future civil oppression for a minute. If the two parties are to stand for anything _other than_ abortion, then there shouldn’t be a pro-life party and a pro-choice party. The GOP’s core value for a long while now has mostly been the end of the New Deal: deregulation of business and a less progressive tax code. (We are perhaps seeing that shift to a “holy warrior” ethos that paints itself as anti-birth control [“pro-life” is just branding] but also appeals to white supremacism. It is those “holy warriors” who could become the advocates of brutal purge. The business class, largely, don’t want a civil war of extermination, because it would be messy.) So what do deregulation of business and a less progressive tax code have to do with anti-family-planning policies? Not a thing. There is no logical correlation. If anything, anti-regulation types should be _just as_ pro-birth-control as liberal social democratic types. So why make being “pro-life” a thing? Because anti-birth-control hardliners want a party _of their own_, and they entered into an unholy alliance with anti-regulation types. This worked because they could tap into a myth of “conservatism” and regression to an idealized pre-New Deal social order; also, maybe, because some proportion of the anti-birth-control base were unsympathetic to “progressivism” and covetous (or jealously protective) of the privileges of an unregulated capitalist class; or maybe because Francis Schaeffer, who spread “pro-life” thought outside the Roman church, was a conservative in his own mind. So we took one of two major parties in a two-party system and make it hardline “pro-life” (that’s against subsidies for prenatal care and education; against sex ed; against any government expenditure, even indirect, for birth control; as well as against abortion in most circumstances) while keeping it hardline anti-New Deal. Who represents any other combination of opinions? Weirdly, unless one is both pro-abortion and pro-New Deal, the GOP is your representative, politically. That seems counter-intuitive, but it makes sense, because the GOP sell both these stances as _moral absolutes._ Even if you disagree with one stance, you are \*morally compelled \*to vote GOP as a way to oppose the “evil” Democrats. That’s just bonkers! But it works, because there’s a two-party system. And the Democrats can’t fight it, because the propaganda is so successful that, assuming a perfectly uncorrelated distribution of New Dealer and pro-choice sentiment, and pro-life sentiment in half the populace, the GOP can get over half the populace to distrust the Democrats as a matter of prejudice. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/171 "2013-08-16T00:09:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I say they already are as nasty and personal as you can get. But going along with your argument, isn’t the perception that Republicans are nasty one of the reasons they lose? Sounds to me like being better at being nasty is a double-edged sword. 😃 Being _perceived as_ “nasty” to constituents is very different from \*being \*“nasty” enough to undermine one’s rivals. Basic Machiavelli. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/172 "2013-08-16T00:14:06Z")
A country where a great proportion of apparently reasonable people can unironically use the phrase, “attempting to gain national hegemony so you can bring 100% of the populace under your social-democrat fist,” is pretty near hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/173 "2013-08-16T00:48:31Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Republican policies _create_ poverty. The old New Dealers diminished it, while present Democrats (DLC, Clinton/Obama “Blue Dogs”) seem to be (literally, small _c_) conservatively holding steady, if they do anything at all. > > As for the rest: Scarcity creates aggression. Aggression finds scapegoats, purges are carried out. We need only look at Rwanda and Yugoslavia in the 1990’s to see Christian nations turn to genocide. The rhetoric is already there. The radio network to disseminate propaganda and give marching orders–exactly like Rwanda–is certainly already there. > > A study of history leads us to this conclusion. There will be purges to maintain power. They will be concocted on pretended “Christian” or “civilization-defending” premises. The rest is details. So who’s gonna get purged here? That’s a pretty important detail. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/174 "2013-08-16T01:03:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nobody thinks of Sweden and pictures a fist. The reality is different. It was especially different in the heyday of Swedish socialism. Two TV stations, both state-run, ensured that citizens didn’t hear subversive ideas. The tax burden was so high that the average worker had no options and had to rely on the government for everything. It’s not a fist, but it is a major restraint on people’s freedoms. And I have yet to see a social democracy that didn’t involve major controls on information. One good thing about the EU is that it’s made these insular countries like Sweden open up their markets to outside entertainment and news, which has led to the rise of genuinely conservative parties, as in American-style conservative parties. These parties are still fringe, but growing all the time. The fact that they didn’t exist at all in the 1970s and 80s is a tribute to how efficiently social democracies used to control information. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/175 "2013-08-16T04:02:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The reality is different. It was especially different in the heyday of Swedish socialism. Two TV stations, both state-run, ensured that citizens didn’t hear subversive ideas. Really? > **[List of television stations in Sweden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_Sweden)** > > This is a list of television channels that broadcast in Sweden. > Channels holding a broadcasting license for the terrestrial network are marked "(DTT)." > The public television channels are mostly funded by a license fee and broadcast free-to-air. > **[Television in Sweden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_in_Sweden)** > > Television began in Sweden in 1954 with test transmissions, prior to the opening of the first station, Radiotjänst, two years later. A second channel was launched in 1969. Commercial television arrived in the 1980s through cable television and in 1992, the country's first terrestrial commercial channel was launched. > Typically, non-Swedish content maintains the original language soundtrack while subtitled into Swedish. This includes foreign interviews embedded into news and magazine programmes ... ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/176 "2013-08-16T04:35:39Z")
Thats now. It was different in the 70s. And you’ll notice now that Sweden is a lot less socialist and the government changes hands more often. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/177 "2013-08-16T07:25:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So who’s gonna get purged here? That’s a pretty important detail. Is it? :shrug: “Non-whites,” probably, or “progressives” if Glenn Beck is the key influence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/178 "2013-08-16T14:34:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, there have always been things lefties find worth doing [at the local level](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer_Socialism=). Millions of Americans today enjoy the fruits of those things without realizing who brought them. Meanwhile, [here’s](http://onthecommons.org/magazine/tea-party-targets-public-libraries#) what the Tea Party is doing at the local level. > [@](#): > > **The Tea Party Targets Public Libraries** > > In September 2012 the Library Board of Pulaski County, Kentucky raised property taxes $1 per year for a typical homeowner to maintain the existing level of services in its five libraries. Voters were not given the opportunity to reject the increase; in 2006 however, they were and resoundingly approved a much larger increase to finance a new library. > > But in 2006 the county and the country did not have a Tea Party. That grassroots movement sprang up early 2009 in fury at the federal government’s attempt to help millions of people facing foreclosure stay in their homes. In 2010 it escalated into a full-throated attack on the federal government’s attempt to expand medical care access to tens of millions. By 2012 the Tea Party movement’s virulent anti-government, anti-tax philosophy and take-no-prisoners, I’m-not-my-brother’s-keeper attitude had come to define American politics. > > Pulaski County Tea Partiers, justifying their fury by noting the $1 increase had not been voted on by the people began circulating a petition to dissolve the library tax district completely. The effort’s leader declared her group would stop accumulating signatures only if all members of the current library board resigned. > > The Board did not resign and ultimately the petitioners found they had too little time to gather the necessary signatures. But the Tea Party had demonstrated its strength and revealed its willingness to use scorched earth tactics. Keep reading, it gets even worse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/179 "2013-08-16T14:41:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Thats now. It was different in the 70s. And you’ll notice now that Sweden is a lot less socialist and the government changes hands more often. If the social democrats can be removed from office so easily, then their government never was all that iron-fisted to begin with, was it? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948/180 "2013-08-17T01:47:26Z")
OK, I’ll try to give the OP a better answer: There are a few major gradients of public opinion intersecting here; let’s pick the two I mentioned earlier: Abortion rights, which is a true gradient with most opinion soft and somewhere in the middle. Business regulation, which is a hot button for a very few activists (including professional pols), largely ignored by many, but also a true gradient. These two gradients are basically uncorrelated; people who are pro-life are not necessarily anti-regulation, and so forth. Defending a “Democratic Party set of views” can be as alienating to people who disagree with only some of party platforms as insisting on a “Republican set of views.” And both parties have both fanatics who insist everything be done their way and other members who insist that \*their \*party is the font of tolerance and diverse opinion. :rolleyes: Moderates know this, they’re not going to be completely fooled. For the Democrats to win more votes, they have to embrace a paradox: Win moderates by pushing against hardline GOP policies, but also find candidates who can make a defense of policies other than moderation. A moderate for moderation’s sake will merely moderate GOP policies, and what’s the use of that? So you have to have three things: advocates to the “left” of candidates making the case for leftism on its own merits, advocates against “right-wing extremism,” and actually somewhat left-of-center candidates. I think often Democrats settle for one of these. But at this point it’s not about winning votes, is it? It’s about gerrymandering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-democrats-figure-out-and-fix-why-theyre-losing-locally/665948.md?page=10)