Will ending "birthright citizenship" help to control America's borders?

[magellan01]

@Polycarp

“As long as you’re here legally”? Isn’t that pretty snarky a comment? What about you? Can you prove your right to be in America? Since you first raised the question, give us evidence you have any right to speak to who should or should not be here.

It was intentionally snarky. And just what kind of evidence do you propose I submit to an anonymous message board to prove my citizenship? :rolleyes:

@Polycarp

Further, I was brought up on the “melting pot” concept: that a large part of what made America what it is, is the various elements brought to it by the different ethnic groups that settled it. Even the power that drives your computer is delivered to your house by circuitry invented by a Croatian immigrant.

We are in total agreement here. I am well aware and have full appreciation for the contributions of previous generations of immigrants.

@Polycarp

And “respect for the laws” should above all cover respect for the Constitution. Yet you blatantly advocate “getting around its provisions” by “recent researches by legal scholars.”

Show me where I’ve tried to do this.

@Polycarp

Oh, and you’ve never addressed Eva Luna’s repeated comments about people who came here legally and with proper permission, but whose visas expired while they were waiting for the bureaucracy to process the paperwork to extend them. Knowing that the spouse of one of the SDSAB was in precisely this fix a couple of years ago, I consider calling such people “illegal immigrants” fairly insulting. And such people do make up a substantial share of the numbers bandied about about people who are “here illegally” – they don’t distinguish between Pablo-who-snuck-across-the-border and Francine-whose-student-visa-paperwork-was-lost-by-the-IRS. Or Dr. Singh who was invited to come to America and join the university’s research team in his specialty and whose work is benefitting the national interest.

There are a few issues here. First, it seems I did not give Eva Luna’s question adequate attention and my answer was not on point. My apologies. In response I would say that the immigrant with the expired visa should not in any way be penalized for slow action on the part of the government. That takes care of one group. Conversely, if a person simply allows their visa to expire and takes no action to extend or change their status, from the date of expiration they are here illegaly and should be picked up and sent back to their native country. Period.

The latter issue is interesting. Should the U.S. discriminate between different types of immigtrants? Should it give preference to someone with a special skill over someone who does not have a specail skill? I say absolutely. I advocate complete lock=down of the borders. Once we have that we should then invite/allow people that will benefit our society. If we need 1,000 doctors, 100,000 agricultural workers, 500 engineers and 300,000 general laborers, that’s who we should let/invite in. If we need 400,000 temporary workers, let’s get them processed and on the job quickly and efficiently. If there is no room for you but you have a super-special skill, we should be able to make accommodations.

[treis]

Your view of immigrants as commodities instead of people escaping terrible situations is fairly repugnant.

[magellan01]

@crowmanyclouds

This assimilation argument is as valid today as it was 100 years ago.
It’s bull! 1st gens rapidly adapt to the new culture, but their parents are still from the old country, 2nd gens ARE assimilated.
It takes 30 or 40 years for this to happen, so what, almost 100 years later and we still have the remnants of that eras ethnic enclaves, Jewish delis, and Polish butchers, little Italy’s and Chinatowns, have these people assimilated or not?
Are you really arguing that Mexicans are different somehow?
Assimilation does NOT mean becoming WASPs.

There were two big Italian strongholds in NYC: Little Italy in Manhattan and Arthur Avenue in The Bronx. Today, they are not a quarter as “pure” as they were, although there are many more Italians. Where did they go? Into the American landscape: Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey. The tenaments of East Harlem, which were predominately Jewish and Italian at the turn of the century, first became Black and then mainly Hispanic. Manhattan’s Lower East Side used to be almost exclusively Jewish. It didn’t last long. They wanted to weave themselves into the fabric America. Today, the only vestiges you see down there are a few delis and restaurants. There was a desire from these the turn-of-the-century groups to “melt” into America. That attitude was good for them, and America. I do not see it with Spanish-speaking groups. Instead I see a contentment to work hard and create homogeneous cultural islands within the U.S. tomndebb asked for “proof” of this. I have no data proving its veracity. I am not aware of any proving the theory to be wrong. My personal observations lead me to believe I am more correct than not. A trip to any big city might convince you of the same.

I think that the Chinese suffer from the same problem. By choosing to create and remain in Chinese enclaves, they have not woven themselves into society nearly as well as the Japanese, who came here later and in much smaller numbers. No doubt racism and fear of abuse played a large role in their desire to cordon themselves off, but the fact remains that outside of their communities they are almost invisible to much of America. Given their numbers and length of time here, I find this both astounding and sad.

[magellan01]

@treis

Your view of immigrants as commodities instead of people escaping terrible situations is fairly repugnant.

Characterize it as you wish. I’d say it is practical. For if the criteria for entry is someone being able to have a better life, how many billion people do you propose we allow in? Seriously, what’s your number? Will you only start to curtail immigration after the U.S. has the same density and standard of living as one of the Third World Countries the people want to escape now?

It is in our own best interest, and the world’s interest for America to stay strong.

So, what’s your number?: X,000,000,000?

[GIGObuster]

@magellan01

Characterize it as you wish. I’d say it is practical. For if the criteria for entry is someone being able to have a better life, how many billion people do you propose we allow in? Seriously, what’s your number? Will you only start to curtail immigration after the U.S. has the same density and standard of living as one of the Third World Countries the people want to escape now?

It is in our own best interest, and the world’s interest for America to stay strong.

So, what’s your number?: X,000,000,000?

As you are still denying a practical thing like amnesty, I have to say you are really not serious at all.

[magellan01]

@tomndebb

I bring up the counter examples to demonstrate that the notion of “immersion and assimilation” is as much myth as reality. The reality is that there were neighborhoods of immigrants who remained insular for more than one generation. They are gone now, but I knew places in Metro Detroit where Polish and Italian were still fluent modes of communication over 40 years after we slammed shut the door around 1920 (and over 70 years after the doors first opened), so why should we be uspset that there are neigborhoods that still speak Spanish only 15 or 20 years after the doors opened, there?

It’s not been 15 or 20 years. It’s been more like 40. And we should be concerned for a few reasons. One is the sheer numbers and the costs associated with them. Two, it does not behoove us to have such a large portion of our immigrants be of one culture. Three, the borders have to be controlled anyway, for national security reasons. Four, healthcare; both the strain on our system and the resurgence of certain diseases. Please refer to my cite on the previous page for specifics.

@tomndebb

OK, some of those neighborhoods are growing. So what? What is the evidence that they are going to do anything other than become Americans, just like the rest of us? The only group that is actively resisting assimilation that I can see are the Cuban refugees that we welcome. Everyone else is just trying to get in, get a job, and participate in the American dream. (If they were really here for the purpose of staying separate, we should see many of the older ones taking their (“ill-gotten”) gains from American employment and returning home to enjoy their retirement in Mexico with its lower cost of living. Do you have any numbers for that phenomenon?)

This gets back to the debate we had about remittances we had, and which there are no numbers available for comparison. Regarding those who move back, I did read something about that a few months ago. The article aslo mentioned that Bush’s suggestion of Amnesty (light) encouraged a good portion who had planned to go back to stick it out.

@tomndebb

As to the notion that Mexico would “get its act together” if it stopped receiving checks from the U.S. on a family by family basis, I think you are letting your passion get in the way of your good sense. Mexico is barely surviving with its (your claim) billions of income from the U.S., yet, in some magic fashion, cutting off that source of income and sending millions(?) of people back to the country without jobs is going to empower the country to magically “get its act together”? I would suggest that there be a plan in place before that occurs before we rely on the wish fairy to make that happen. (Because, if Mexico does not “get its act together” in a matter of months, all the deported millions are going to be back in the U.S. looking for work (that we will happily give them) if they have to swim up the Californian or Texan coasts or up the Colorado River.)

And we have not even begun addressing the people who are here from El Salvador and Guatemala primarily because the U.S. deliberately destroyed their nations’ political and economic infrastructures so that various U.S. companies could make better profits.

Let’s deal with it right now. It’s history. Except to say that if there are ways we can invest in their economies to the benefit of all parties (and it doesn’t have to monetarily) we shold do it. Ditto for Mexico. I agree that we shold have a plan in place. I truly believe that the easy money the government gets from the immigrants to the U.S. is the main thing holding them back. I would love to see the corporate giants who currently go to Asia for manufacturing set up an infrastructure with the Mexican governemnt. WHY isn’t this happening? The labor is cheap. It’s close. What’s stopping this other than no one stepping up to the plate?

[crowmanyclouds]

@magellan01

There were two big Italian strongholds in NYC: Little Italy in Manhattan and Arthur Avenue in The Bronx. Today, they are not a quarter as “pure” as they were, although there are many more Italians. Where did they go? Into the American landscape: Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey. The tenements of East Harlem, which were predominately Jewish and Italian at the turn of the century, first became Black and then mainly Hispanic. Manhattan’s Lower East Side used to be almost exclusively Jewish. It didn’t last long. They wanted to weave themselves into the fabric America. Today, the only vestiges you see down there are a few delis and restaurants. There was a desire from these the turn-of-the-century groups to “melt” into America.

And how long did it take?
They’re not “pure” but they’re still there, right?
Maybe they wanted to melt in because of the hostility they faced, being recognizably the evil immigrant?

@magellan01

That attitude was good for them, and America. I do not see it with Spanish-speaking groups. Instead I see a contentment to work hard and create homogeneous cultural islands within the U.S. tomndebb asked for “proof” of this. I have no data proving its veracity. I am not aware of any proving the theory to be wrong. My personal observations lead me to believe I am more correct than not. A trip to any big city might convince you of the same.

I live in New Jersey, not far from Newark, Elizabeth, Plainfield, and NYC, and you are wrong, I could show you plenty of cultural islands where the language spoken is NOT Spanish!
Is it that you don’t see it, or don’t want to see it?

@magellan01

I think that the Chinese suffer from the same problem. By choosing to create and remain in Chinese enclaves, they have not woven themselves into society nearly as well as the Japanese, who came here later and in much smaller numbers. No doubt racism and fear of abuse played a large role in their desire to cordon themselves off, but the fact remains that outside of their communities they are almost invisible to much of America. Given their numbers and length of time here, I find this both astounding and sad.

And given the attitude of some of my fellow Americans, I can see why Spanish speakers might adopt the same strategy

[treis]

@magellan01

There were two big Italian strongholds in NYC: Little Italy in Manhattan and Arthur Avenue in The Bronx. Today, they are not a quarter as “pure” as they were, although there are many more Italians. Where did they go? Into the American landscape: Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey. The tenaments of East Harlem, which were predominately Jewish and Italian at the turn of the century, first became Black and then mainly Hispanic. Manhattan’s Lower East Side used to be almost exclusively Jewish. It didn’t last long. They wanted to weave themselves into the fabric America. Today, the only vestiges you see down there are a few delis and restaurants. There was a desire from these the turn-of-the-century groups to “melt” into America.That attitude was good for them, and America. I do not see it with Spanish-speaking groups. Instead I see a contentment to work hard and create homogeneous cultural islands within the U.S. tomndebb asked for “proof” of this. I have no data proving its veracity. I am not aware of any proving the theory to be wrong. My personal observations lead me to believe I am more correct than not. A trip to any big city might convince you of the same.

You can’t just keep repeating this and expect it to become true. Mexican’s and other Latin American’s have been immigrating and integrating into America for decades. In fact so many Hispanics have immigrated and integrated that they are now the largest minority group in the country. If memory serves our current Attorney General, Governor of Arizona and Secretary of Commerce are all Hispanics. Are you planning on producing any evidence at all that they are failing to integrate or are you just going to keep repeating it?

@magellan01

I think that the Chinese suffer from the same problem. By choosing to create and remain in Chinese enclaves, they have not woven themselves into society nearly as well as the Japanese, who came here later and in much smaller numbers. No doubt racism and fear of abuse played a large role in their desire to cordon themselves off, but the fact remains that outside of their communities they are almost invisible to much of America. Given their numbers and length of time here, I find this both astounding and sad.

Hang on a second, despite the racism directed towards Chinese they have integrated in society. I think the problem here is that you are pointing to groups like Italians that have already immigrated and integrated. As you admit 100 years ago when Italian immigration was much higher there were places like the current Hispanic places that you so roundly criticize. What you fail to mention is that Italian immigration has largely ceased while the Hispanic immigration is ongoing. Of course the Italian sections of cities that allow immigrants to start integrating are mostly gone becuase the need for them is mostly gone.

@magellan01

Characterize it as you wish. I’d say it is practical. For if the criteria for entry is someone being able to have a better life, how many billion people do you propose we allow in? Seriously, what’s your number? Will you only start to curtail immigration after the U.S. has the same density and standard of living as one of the Third World Countries the people want to escape now?

It is in our own best interest, and the world’s interest for America to stay strong.

So, what’s your number?: X,000,000,000?

This is laughably absurd. There is no way a billion people will up and decide to immigrate to the U.S. You are talking about 1/6th of the people in the world. As for a specific number, I simply don’t have one. I know that we can absorb a heck of a lot more people than are here now. You talk about keeping America strong, how is it going to compete with a billion Chinese when they build up their education and infrastructure? How is it going to compete with a billion Indians? We shouldn’t be exporting our manufacturing to them we should be allowing the people that want to immigrate come here.

Your entire argument rests on a premise that you aren’t even attempting to prove, that Mexicans are not assimilating, and alarmist fearmongering.

By the way, I am still waiting on your cost estimate of deporting the 10s of millions of illegal immigrants that are in the country today. If you are serious about the plan shouldn’t you at least have a general idea of what it will cost?

[magellan01]

@GIGObuster

As you are still denying a practical thing like amnesty, I have to say you are really not serious at all.

I think amnesty is a horrible idea. Not only does it reward people for breakiing the law, accidentally punishing those who have been seeking to come her legally, but it will simply encourage future illegal immigration. This shold be patently obvious, even iff we didn’t have the proof through Reagan’s Amnesty program and the increased activity across the border when Bush proposed his Amnesty-Light back in the spring or early summer.

I simply do not accept that we can’t send those who are here illegally back. Here’s the beginnings of a plan.

1. get corporate America together with the Mexican government to develop a manufacturing base in Mexico to rival those in Asia.
2. appropriate funds to enforce the laws against employing illegal immigrants and enforce them assiduously. Also appropriate funds for immigration enforcement personnel and equipment, so it is in place for Step 4.
3. Create a system, with enough personnel, to process legal immigrants quickly (1-2 weeks)
4. get the word out to all those with illegal status: “You are going back”. And the first ones to register and leave will be the first ones let in through either legal immigration or Guest-Worker programs. First leave, first serve on the way back in.
5. Seal borders completely.
6. actively seek out those with illegal status who have not registered and left. Arrest them, book them, send them home and to the very end of the line for re-entry.
7. Develop a Guest-worker program for Americans in depressed areas where manufacturing jobs have been lost (Michigan, etc.). Now that all companies have to pay more for the jobs they gave to illegals, they will be somewhat more attractive to Americans. Whatever the need is after that. we go to the pool of those who have left and let in as many as we desire. Again, giving those at that front of the line first crack.

Or something like that. What do you think?

P.S. Nice to see you away from that old thread, Gigo. Glad it’s history.

[treis]

@magellan01

4. get the word out to all those with illegal status: “You are going back”. And the first ones to register and leave will be the first ones let in through either legal immigration or Guest-Worker programs. First leave, first serve on the way back in.

So in essence you are telling these people to go back to a place where they probably won’t be able to find a job and if they do find a job it will be for a lot less than they are making now all for the hope of possibly being let back in if we need them. Do you expect that argument to convince any of them?

@magellan01

5. Seal borders completely.
6. actively seek out those with illegal status who have not registered and left. Arrest them, book them, send them home and to the very end of the line for re-entry.

How much will these two steps cost?

[Der_Trihs]

@treis

How much will these two steps cost?

And how will we afford it when our economy collapses due to such a massive labor shift ?

[magellan01]

@crowmanyclouds

And how long did it take?
They’re not “pure” but they’re still there, right?

41 years, 3 months, 2 weeks, 5 days, 19 hours and 27 seconds. C’mon you know damn well there is no definitive way to answer that. And yes, as I indicated, vestiges of the neighborhoods are still there. The personal knowledge I have of both Italian and Jewish families who arrived in the first decade of the 1900s is that they were out og the old neighborhood in one generation. Meaning that the children of those who arrived by boat had moved out of the old neighborhood and into fully mixed neighborhoods. A few that I know of took two generations. I am not personally aware of any that took longer. Granted, I’m sure they exist and I am working from a very small sample size.

@crowmanyclouds

I live in New Jersey, not far from Newark, Elizabeth, Plainfield, and NYC, and you are wrong, I could show you plenty of cultural islands where the language spoken is NOT Spanish!

Hold up. I may very well be wrong about everthing I’ve said, but what specifically are you claiming I am wrong about in this particular instance. Here is my passage you are commenting on:

@magellan01

That attitude was good for them, and America. I do not see it with Spanish-speaking groups. Instead I see a contentment to work hard and create homogeneous cultural islands within the U.S. tomndebb asked for “proof” of this. I have no data proving its veracity. I am not aware of any proving the theory to be wrong. My personal observations lead me to believe I am more correct than not. A trip to any big city might convince you of the same.

Are you saying that I do not see what I claim to see? I hope not. That brings us to sentence #3: Are you claiming that I DO have data? Sentence #4: Are you saying I AM aware of data proving my theory wrong? Sentence 5: So, my personal observations (of which you have perfect knowledge) DO NOT lead me to believe that I am correct? Interesting. That leaves Sentence 6: And that must mean that a trip to any big city is absolutely incapable of convincing you that my theory is correct. Do you mean that you will not change your mind regardless of any evidence that might be presented?

So which is it? Where was I “wrong”?

And I will just add, just because a claim that there are cultural island where Spanish is the language spoken does not mean that I’ve claimed that there are no other cultural island within which they speak a language other than Spanish.

@crowmanyclouds

Is it that you don’t see it, or don’t want to see it?

Well, I hardly claim to have been everywhere and seen everything. Do you suggest that I should deny the reality my personal experience offers me?

@crowmanyclouds

Maybe they wanted to melt in because of the hostility they faced, being recognizably the evil immigrant?
And given the attitude of some of my fellow Americans, I can see why Spanish speakers might adopt the same strategy

I think you’re right. But it still doesn’t make it a good strategy. For them, or the country.

[magellan01]

@treis

Are you planning on producing any evidence at all that they are failing to integrate or are you just going to keep repeating it?

Maybe you haven’t been paying attention. There is no data that I have been able to find that allows one to measure and compare the assimilation rates of the two different groups about 80 years apart. Either to support my position or to shoot it down. If you think such data exists, please provide it. Again, if you would have read more carefully you would have seen that I said that the comparison is easily ignored, as the rate of assimilation is too slow for the rate of immigration. The proof I have offered for this (which tomndebb, who it was directed to accepted) is the growth of theses cultural islands, both in size and number. Naturally, you are free to discount all of this. I’d prefer if you shot it down, either with data or a sound argument, but that is up to you.

@treis

Hang on a second, despite the racism directed towards Chinese they have integrated in society.

Not near the rate of other groups. The Chinese are one of the most insular ethnicities in the U.S.

@treis

I think the problem here is that you are pointing to groups like Italians that have already immigrated and integrated. As you admit 100 years ago when Italian immigration was much higher there were places like the current Hispanic places that you so roundly criticize. What you fail to mention is that Italian immigration has largely ceased while the Hispanic immigration is ongoing. Of course the Italian sections of cities that allow immigrants to start integrating are mostly gone becuase the need for them is mostly gone.

Yes. But I only make the point because of the rate the the Spanish communities continue to grow. If it had stopped by now, much like the large waves of Italians and Jews stopped, I do think that assimilation would occur. But the communities just grow larger and larger. Ad that in of itself acts as a great deterrent to assimilation.

@treis

This is laughably absurd. There is no way a billion people will up and decide to immigrate to the U.S.

Why not? If the U.S. piolicy is that we will welcome anyone who wants to move here in order to have a better life, why wouldn’t a couple billion people from Africa and Asia raise their hand? Wouldn’t you?

@treis

By the way, I am still waiting on your cost estimate of deporting the 10s of millions of illegal immigrants that are in the country today. If you are serious about the plan shouldn’t you at least have a general idea of what it will cost?

As soon as these questions cease I’ll be able to get to work on that and do my part to save the United States of America.

[magellan01]

@treis

So in essence you are telling these people to go back to a place where they probably won’t be able to find a job and if they do find a job it will be for a lot less than they are making now all for the hope of possibly being let back in if we need them. Do you expect that argument to convince any of them?

You’ve ignored the keystone of my plan, Step 1. And with all the manufacturing that gets under way there will be more demand for workers, which will raise wages. I hope their convinced. Proof of actual jobs in Mexico will definitely help. But hey, convinced or not, they’re going back. See steps 2, 5, and 6.

How much will these two steps cost?

Actually, I do recall seeing numbers on this. I’ll try to find it. My short answer is: not as much as not taking these steps.

[magellan01]

@Der Trihs

And how will we afford it when our economy collapses due to such a massive labor shift ?

See Step 7. Also my long post on the previous page that shows the costs we won’t be incurring providing services. There is now a net drain on our system. Again, see that long post.

[magellan01]

Isn’t there anyone else on this board that sees that there is a problem. I appreceiate all the questions causing me to hone my brilliant plan, but do any of you have a solution other than amnesty. Did you read the statistics I provided on the previous page. Do you doubt them? Do you have others to counter them?

Come on, somebody make an improvement to my plan. I dare you. We’ll get it just right, send it to Washington and sit back waitng for the Noble Prize. So whataya say. Are you with me?!!!

[Der_Trihs]

@magellan01

See Step 7. Also my long post on the previous page that shows the costs we won’t be incurring providing services. There is now a net drain on our system. Again, see that long post.

What services ? Illegal immigrants tend to avoid government services to avoid deportation; they are a net economic gain last I heard. They pay taxes and get little for it, they work hard and are paid little; as far as I can tell, we are the ones doing the exploiting; all this ranting about the evil immigrant hordes is a combination of blaming the victim and America’s obsessive racisism/classism, IMHO.

[Siege]

I’m an actual immigrant to the United States, and my mother was pregnant when we came here, so my youngest brother could, I suppose, be called an “anchor baby”, although we were legal immigrants. He’s an American citizen because he was born in the US. He’s also a British citizen because both of my parents are British. The rest of us are naturalized citizens of the US. We’re also all, except for my little brother, legal immigrants and have been subject to the laws of the US and paid taxes all our lives. Until each of us became citizens, we did face a few extra restrictions that US citizens don’t, and some things were a little tougher, including proving I was eligible for in-state tuition when I went to college.

Oh, by the way, treis, the “terrible conditions” my father was escaping were living in West Sussex and working for the BBC! :eek:

I don’t like agreeing with magellan01. He reminds me too much of the coworkers who, in mid-September 2001, said people who weren’t born in this country should leave. At that point, I looked up from what I was doing and said, “In that case, it’s going to take me a bit longer to fix your database.” That provoked a chorus of, “We didn’t mean you!” I’m also inclined to be a bit of a hard-liner on illegal immigration because it does make things harder for those of us who are legal immigrants. A former employer was audited by the then-INS because some of our staff were illegal immigrants. I’d lost my naturalization certificate, so I had take a day off work to obtain a new copy. It sounds petty, I know, but if I hadn’t been able to do so, I was told I might not necessarily be able to continue to live and work in the US.

My knee-jerk reaction was to see some merit in not granting automatic citizenship to children born in the US to illegal immigrants; on the other hand, how do you work the logistics? I’m pretty sure we weren’t official resident aliens when my brother was born. What happens when a child is born to parents who are here legally on a work visa or in some other way, but that work visa expires or some other bureacratic hassle intervenes and the parents become illegal immigrants? INS was a huge bureaucracy and even when you play by the rules, things do go wrong. How do you determine the parents are, in fact, illegal, rather than legal immigrants and when do you do it? My brother has no more documentation for being a citizen of the US than most people born here. I assume his stock proof of citizenship is his birth certificate. If you no longer grant automatic citizenship to people born in the US, then that means a birth certificate indicating one was born in the US isn’t adequate evidence of citizenship any more. I’m sure there is some work-around for children of foreign diplomats, but I assume that’s rarely used and limited to the country’s largest cities. I also assume the children of diplomats don’t plan on spending their entire lives living and working in the US. Sixteen years after they were born, when applying for a job, would people have to prove that, not only were they born in the United States, but that their parents were either citizens of the US or legal immigrants? What if they only thought their parents were legal immigrants?

After giving the matter as much thought as I’m capable of the crack of dawn, I’d have to say I don’t like this idea. I admit my feelings on immigration are rooted in personal experience and I’m not as objective as some on this board.

CJ

[Sunspace]

@magellan01

How has the decision been received by Ontarians?

It fell off the front pages very quickly, but I don’t think the underlying issues are at all resolved. I was surprised by the Premier’s announcement; I was expecting that it would be approved.

A bit of googling yielded this page at religioustolerance.org: http://www.religioustolerance.org/shariaon.htm , which gives a better summary than I could.

[Eva_Luna]

@Siege

I’m sure there is some work-around for children of foreign diplomats, but I assume that’s rarely used and limited to the country’s largest cities. I also assume the children of diplomats don’t plan on spending their entire lives living and working in the US. Sixteen years after they were born, when applying for a job, would people have to prove that, not only were they born in the United States, but that their parents were either citizens of the US or legal immigrants? What if they only thought their parents were legal immigrants?

Children of foreign diplomats do not acquire citizenship by birth in the U.S. I have no idea how that would work in practice, as they would have U.S. birth certificates just like everyone else, and there would be no way to know from the birth certificates that they were children of foreign diplomats.