# Will everyone eventually break under torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485 "2014-11-12T23:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/41 "2014-11-14T17:06:58Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Not thinking of Rokossovsky are you? They knocked his teeth out, but he refused to sign anything. Stalin later reinstated him, though never fully trusted the half-Pole. Evidently there are going to be some hard-as-nails bastards who eschew the trend. Possibly, only thing I really recall is that (a) the torture and ill-treatment lasted for months (b) they literally gouged one of his eyes out and (c) he didn’t confess, I don’t see the second mentioned re Rokossovsky though. On a sidenote and relevant to this thread is that I also recall that when people refused to confess the powers that be would start threatening and ill-treating their friends and family. Someone who can take pretty much anything they can throw personally at them may not be willing to have that done to those they care for. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/42 "2014-11-14T17:44:15Z")
Also, even if very tough, people may not see a good \*reason \*to hold out. If they’re being tortured to extract what seems to them to be a relatively trivial piece of information, or if they think that even if they hold out, others will simply divulge the information regardless, then they may conclude, “There’s no point in resisting and suffering needless torture in this situation.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/43 "2014-11-14T18:08:08Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Corey was the first person I thought of, but I wonder about his psychology, and his religious belief. Other people confessed, because the chances were that they would be convicted at trial, executed, and given a burial without Christian prayers, in unconsecrated ground, which by their theology meant they wouldn’t go to heaven. If they confessed, however falsely, they would still be executed, but then they would get Christian burials, and go to heaven. I wonder if it is possible that Corey was a non-believer-- or at least did not believe that he could be consigned to hell by his manner of burial, and that falsely confessing would be the sin of “bearing false witness,” and that would be much worse for his immortal soul than his manner of burial. It had less to do with his religious beliefs and more to do with the law. If he refused to plead, his sons-in-law would inherit his estate; if he pleaded, he would probably be found guilty and his estate forfeit to the government. So he refused to plead. He held out for three days, until he died. So he never broke under torture. All he ever said was the famous “More weight!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/44 "2014-11-14T18:11:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > To this day I am still not clear on exactly what waterboarding involves. I read descriptions of it and come away, for whatever reason, unclear about what’s going on. Something about a towel and water being poured over the face, I think? And people emphasize it’s not “simulated drowning” but “actual drowning.” Okay, but why the towel? What’s going on? And why couldn’t that soldier get past 17 seconds by simply holding his breath? Not ever having done it/had it done to me, but here’s how I think it goes: The victim is placed on an inclined plane, with their feet higher than their head. Water is introduced into their mouth or nose or both, such that they must inhale the water, triggering a sensation of drowning. The water level rises until the victim passes out or gives up. Due to the incline, water flows out of the respiratory tree and out the mouth and nose, allowing the victim to either breathe on their own or be resuscitated. Then the process is repeated. The wet towel is to prevent anything other than water from entering the victim’s lungs. When the victim inhales, all they can breathe is water. Sure, you can hold your breath, like Christopher Hitchens did in his [2008 Vanity Fair article](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808) on the subject, but when you breathe in, you’re still getting nothing but water. And, at least for me, water in the sinus cavities hurts. A lot. It was something I took a lot of time learning how to avoid, when I first learned how to swim. Also, if the victim holds their breath, the phenomenon mentioned by **Bouncer** and others above, occurs where the victim start to blame themselves for their failure and their pain. The Hitchens article is an excellent, easy to read explanation of the process, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/45 "2014-11-14T18:25:20Z")
Gray Ghost, ask your friend if he can get through having a cavity filled by the dentist without nitrous of Novocain. If not, he won’t last. Me, I think I wouldn’t last twenty seconds. Paper tiger, here. Also, I second the Christopher Hitchens article about waterboarding. It made him change his mind on whether it’s torture, and Hitch was honest enough to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/46 "2014-11-14T18:38:44Z")
I think that exceptional individuals in exceptional circumstances will not be broken by physical pain alone. But, skilled interrogators, with the full toolkit of techniques, can break anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/47 "2014-11-14T18:48:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > And why couldn’t that soldier get past 17 seconds by simply holding his breath? Maybe an interrogator pushes down hard on your chest to expel air to prevent you from holding your breath. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/48 "2014-11-14T18:51:20Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Gray Ghost, ask your friend if he can get through having a cavity filled by the dentist without nitrous of Novocain. If not, he won’t last. And even if he can do it once, can he withstand that level of pain 20 times? 50 times? 300 times? At some point, the mind will snap. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/49 "2014-11-14T18:52:45Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Gray Ghost, ask your friend if he can get through having a cavity filled by the dentist without nitrous of Novocain. If not, he won’t last. > > Me, I think I wouldn’t last twenty seconds. Paper tiger, here. > > Also, I second the Christopher Hitchens article about waterboarding. It made him change his mind on whether it’s torture, and Hitch was honest enough to admit it. Think you might have me confused with another poster. I haven’t mentioned any friends in this thread. I’m with you on the not lasting long through pain, and I completely resemble the ordinary guy in this commercial, [You Wouldn’t Make It In Pro Football.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q5s71v8HEo) Problem is, depending on why people are torturing you, they may not care if you last or not, or what you tell them. Which, I suspect, is another thing they teach them at SERE: how to cope with the knowledge that your torturer may not ever stop. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/50 "2014-11-14T18:53:04Z")
**Scylla** [waterboarding himself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717) (I wonder what became of him, by the way). [The confession](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065439/), a movie by Costa-Gavras about the torture of a Czech official, Arthur London, to make him admit to betrayal (psychological torture only, like sleep deprivation) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/51 "2014-11-14T19:41:35Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > My Opinion Only. > > Interrogation is part science, and part art. It has both physical and psychological aspects. With the right application of both parts, you can get anyone to reveal information. Some soldiers are taught resistance techniques, but the other thing they are taught is to try to hold out only for a set period of time, in order to give others in their unit a chance to escape or relocate. Very few soldiers have more than tactically useful information, no one gives them launch codes or major troop movement information. The same is true with lower level insurgents, terrorists etc. > > While most here are familiar with waterboarding, there is another technique which requires more time to implement but is more effective in the longer term. > > Basically, you dose the detainee with Fentanyl (or a similarly addictive substance) with only light (easily verifiable) interrogation occurring while they are under the influence. After they are physically addicted (and everyone will become physically addicted, it’s a process that’s chemical and neurological and “willpower” is irrelevant), you put them through controlled withdrawal while asking more serious questions. > > You then repeat this process for verification and re-verification. > > Assuming you don’t accidentally OD the patient, effectiveness of this technique is at around 100% initially (if they were previously addicted at some point before capture) or 100% over time (if they are newly addicted) by repeatedly putting them through a withdrawal loop. They become both physically and psychologically completely dependent on the interrogator, and will thoroughly and honestly discuss whatever lines the interrogator wants to pursue. They will, on their own, bring up secondary lines of interrogation. > > Mental resistance to questioning is beat down by the subjects physical craving both for pleasure and avoidance of pain/misery (two distinct things), as well as their emotional reliance on the interrogator for relief/pleasure AND the fact that their body has turned against them. Remember, after addiction has occurred, the interrogator is doing nothing physically to the detainee. They’re not hitting, kicking, slapping, punching dousing with water or anything else. The detainees OWN BODY is causing them complete misery/pain and so resentment actually turns inward. They can even come to hate themselves because they perceive themselves as “weak”. > > Depending on the addictive substance used, this can be further enhanced by use of medication which causes an “instant detox”. And the cycle can be repeated as long and as many times as necessary without significant injury to the detainee. It requires little to no physical “healing time” as might a dislocated joint, broken bone etc. > > The only person who can offer relief and validation from this cycle, is the interrogator. The detainee will eventually start to actively assist the interrogator, they are much less likely to attempt escape, and they are much more passive (though they must be monitored for suicide attempts). > > Eventually they can be detox’d in a controlled mechanism via Methadone (or other drug) and released with no significant scarring or other outward physical indicators of their interrogation. This then makes their claims of interrogation less believable both to third parties, and to their own allies. > > They’re not going to go back to the Haqqani network and reveal this as they’ll end up dead and they know that. In point of fact, it’s now an avenue for exploitation/coercion since you have audio and video (carefully edited) of them calmly giving up all manner of information. > > This is my opinion only. > > Regards, > -Bouncer- I have to wonder, have security agencies developed anti-interrogation drugs to block those? ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/52 "2014-11-15T01:49:35Z")
I had a long chat with several instructors that conduct training for various gov’t on this exact topic - and across the board, everyone agreed: Everyone breaks. Once they determine your currency, it’s only a matter of applying pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/53 "2014-11-15T15:24:00Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > I had a long chat with several instructors that conduct training for various gov’t on this exact topic - and across the board, everyone agreed: > > Everyone breaks. > > Once they determine your currency, it’s only a matter of applying pressure. What do you mean by currency? Do you mean what kind of positive and negative pressure affects the person most? As an example, I once watched a video of an ex polo player and ex navy seal getting waterboarded. He seemed to last far longer than the 10-20 seconds most people last. However due to his background as a seal and as a polo player he is probably more comfortable in water and less afraid of drowning. On the other hand when one of the commandos who killed an innocent person during retaliation for the black september massacre was put into solitary confinement he broke quickly because he was claustrophobic. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/54 "2014-11-15T19:22:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > What do you mean by currency? Do you mean what kind of positive and negative pressure affects the person most? > > As an example, I once watched a video of an ex polo player and ex navy seal getting waterboarded. He seemed to last far longer than the 10-20 seconds most people last. However due to his background as a seal and as a polo player he is probably more comfortable in water and less afraid of drowning. > > On the other hand when one of the commandos who killed an innocent person during retaliation for the black september massacre was put into solitary confinement he broke quickly because he was claustrophobic. Yes, that is what I meant. For example, I said that, in all honesty, I would put up with quite a bit of physical discomfort if the information I held would cause casualties if I told. One of them looked at me and said, and what if one of them handed you a phone and your daughter was on the other end, in the hands of people preparing to torture her. Yep, bingo, that would work, and quite well on me. If the interrogators are sufficiently motivated and believe that you hold some crucial info, they’ll find a way. They know they have about 24 hours, and will do what they have to in order to get what they need. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/55 "2014-11-16T05:33:53Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > Yes, that is what I meant. For example, I said that, in all honesty, I would put up with quite a bit of physical discomfort if the information I held would cause casualties if I told. One of them looked at me and said, and what if one of them handed you a phone and your daughter was on the other end, in the hands of people preparing to torture her. Yep, bingo, that would work, and quite well on me. If the interrogators are sufficiently motivated and believe that you hold some crucial info, they’ll find a way. They know they have about 24 hours, and will do what they have to in order to get what they need. I heard that was a big thing under Saddam Hussein. He would keep the children of any rivals in prison. Another, he would make you choose the torture. Like for example which of your kids to get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/56 "2014-11-20T09:38:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It had less to do with his religious beliefs and more to do with the law. > > If he refused to plead, his sons-in-law would inherit his estate; if he pleaded, he would probably be found guilty and his estate forfeit to the government. So he refused to plead. > > He held out for three days, until he died. So he never broke under torture. All he ever said was the famous “More weight!” > > Regards, > Shodan Kevin Mitnick broke. Aaron Swartz didn’t: he committed sucide rather than plead. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485/57 "2014-11-20T14:37:07Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Kevin Mitnick broke. Aaron Swartz didn’t: he committed sucide rather than plead. I don’t think either was tortured in the sense that Giles Corey was. Nor were the crimes of which they were accused very similar. “Prithee, sirrah, thou hath by darkest arts smitten my barley with drouth, made mine best cow to miscarry, and hath breached the firewall on my mail server! Thou shouldst be BURNED AT THE STAKE!” Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-everyone-eventually-break-under-torture/704485.md?page=2)