# Will gay acceptance erode the Bible's authority? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414 "2014-02-27T14:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/41 "2014-02-27T18:18:08Z")
Among biblical fundamentalists/literalists, the increasing acceptance of gays from the society will reduce the authority of society. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/42 "2014-02-27T18:24:22Z")
Yes it will and I hope it will erode it a lot, but I expect its total impact will be another drop in the bucket. Its a good move, a decent move, a moral move, but I don’t expect the bible to be toppled so quickly, unfortunately ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/43 "2014-02-27T18:43:51Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I’ll admit I misattributed to Jesus something in Paul’s letter. I apologize. > > The broader point still stands. Many rules from the Bible, even from the New Testament, are viewed as anachronistic today. Adding one more isn’t going to change much. I thought Jesus was supposedly speaking through Paul. If not, where does Paul get any authority from? Which of Paul’s letters and admonitions are from Jesus (or the risen Christ?) and which ones are pulled from elsewhere? I’m not being snarky – this is the first time that I’ve heard that there’s a distinction, for Christians, between what Paul said and what Jesus said. Most of the rules and regs of Christian churches come from Paul, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/44 "2014-02-27T18:47:29Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I thought Jesus was supposedly speaking through Paul. If not, where does Paul get any authority from? Which of Paul’s letters and admonitions are from Jesus (or the risen Christ?) and which ones are pulled from elsewhere? I’m not being snarky – this is the first time that I’ve heard that there’s a distinction, for Christians, between what Paul said and what Jesus said. Most of the rules and regs of Christian churches come from Paul, right? Paul actually explicitly distinguishes (on at least one occasion) between him speaking on authority from Jesus, and him speaking on his own authority. It was, interestingly enough, regarding another sexual morality issue. “But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away…But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/45 "2014-02-27T19:00:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Not for Christians- the Levitical laws have been overridden. Homosexuality is _potentially_ a bigger issue because it’s mentioned in the New Testament as well (a couple times by St. Paul, and possibly once by St. Jude, though the references are vague and murky and it’s unclear what exactly they mean). I say _potentially_ because I think that challenge can be dealt with, as others have been. But honoring the Sabbath isn’t from Leviticus - it’s from Exodus. In fact, it’s one of the Ten Commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/46 "2014-02-27T19:22:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Among biblical fundamentalists/literalists, the increasing acceptance of gays from the society will reduce the authority of society. But only in the short term. A hundred years ago, it wasn’t unusual to hear people preaching segregation from the pulpits, using the Bible as evidence for their positions. Now, that’s something you only hear from the fringiest of the Christian fringe. Give the gay rights movement another fifty years or so, and the Levitican argument against homosexuality will go the same way as the Sons of Ham. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/47 "2014-02-27T19:23:55Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Colossians 3:22-24 (New International Version) > > 22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. The slave better do it too. Exodus 21:20-21 "“If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.” ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/48 "2014-02-27T19:26:12Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Based on all the evangelicals I’ve met who aren’t down with the whole “hatin’ on gays” movement, I’d say no. The population of folks who use the bible to justify homophobia is aging, and will eventually die off. But that doesn’t mean Christianity is going away. Why would it go away? Christianity is LGBTQ-positive. Increasing acceptance of LGBTQ individuals is a triumph of Christian values. ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/49 "2014-02-27T19:31:20Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I thought Jesus was supposedly speaking through Paul. If not, where does Paul get any authority from? Which of Paul’s letters and admonitions are from Jesus (or the risen Christ?) and which ones are pulled from elsewhere? I’m not being snarky – this is the first time that I’ve heard that there’s a distinction, for Christians, between what Paul said and what Jesus said. Most of the rules and regs of Christian churches come from Paul, right? Questioning the authority of Paul, and the validity of his claims about what happened on the road to Damascus, is a very small but growing trend (which I consider myself part of) among Christians. Most of us tend to be anarchists and pacifists, thanks to the influence of Leo Tolstoy in this line of thinking. Almost everything substantial the modern church depends upon assuming that Paul wasn’t lying or deluded about that. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/50 "2014-02-27T19:32:39Z")
I probably shouldn’t have used shrimp as an example; I just lumped it in with the other things since it had already been previously mentioned. That said … > [@ITR Champion](#): > > … slavery bad, shrimp and mixed fabrics fine. I think the peasants in the feudal system can reasonably be considered slaves. There are many different types of slavery, and I don’t mind people differentiating between serfs and other types of slavery. Nevertheless, that’s just terminology. If a US state tried to implement serfdom, they would rightfully be accused of implementing slavery. > [@andros](#): > > Biblical inerrancy and infallibility is a relatively recent theological construct. Your cite says that it’s relatively recent that there is a _formal doctrine_ of inerrancy. That’s probably true. I’m not talking about formal doctrines. > [@andros](#): > > If you call 30% of Americans “very few.” Sure, I’ll grant you that in practice, even those literalists pick and choose to some degree. But they believe it. I remember when that poll was first discussed on the SDMB. As I recall, the general consensus (which I agree with), is that people don’t know what the hell the word “literally” means. And not to be argumentative, but I don’t think even most literalists really _do_ believe it to the extent they claim. They merely claim to believe it. They may even believe that they believe it. But they don’t actually believe it. Anyway, I think the broad picture is pretty clear in one respect - the general trend is away from using the Bible as authoritative. The authority of the Bible has clearly been eroded. Does anybody disagree with that point? Once that’s established, the question is whether any portion of this trend has been caused by social changes such as opposition to slavery and the like. If that can be established, then the question isn’t “Will gay acceptance erode the Bible’s authority?” but instead, “Is this social change somehow different from the others in some important way? Because if not, it will likely continue to erode the authority of the Bible, just like the similar changes in the past.” I think that second step is obviously true, but I suppose I could be wrong. Let me put it this way: (1) It is generally agreed-upon that some moral or factual position taken from the Bible is true. (2) Later, the truth of that position becomes significantly controversial. In some cases the controversy comes from the same authority (the Bible), but with a different interpretation. However, in other cases it comes from a non-Biblical source. (Astronomical observations, personal moral intuition, philosophical reasoning, whatever.) (3) Later still, it is generally agreed-upon that the original moral or factual position is incorrect. While some people still use the old source of authority to justify this new belief (with a new interpretation), there are others who use a new source of authority. Unless there are a significant number of people who are actually _adding_ the Bible as authoritative in some aspect (whether moral or cosmological), then this should result in an erosion of Biblical authority. Slowly, perhaps - but that’s generally how erosion works. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/51 "2014-02-27T19:34:36Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Why would it go away? Christianity is LGBTQ-positive. Increasing acceptance of LGBTQ individuals is a triumph of Christian values. :dubious: Hardly; history demonstrates otherwise. “Increasing acceptance of LGBTQ individuals” is a victory against Christian values; it’s just that the more victory appears inevitable, the more Christians engage in their standard behavior of pretending Christianity supported it all along and try to steal the credit for their religion. That’s how Christians always acts when Christianity loses. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/52 "2014-02-27T19:35:05Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Why would it go away? Christianity is LGBTQ-positive. Increasing acceptance of LGBTQ individuals is a triumph of Christian values. Well there you go OP, there’s your answer. Step 1) “I’m a Christian, which means I get my morals from the One True Source, Jesus Christ and the Bible, which says that homosexuality is wrong.” Step 2) ??? Step 3) “I’m a Christian, which means I get my morals from the One True Source, Jesus Christ and the Bible, which says that homosexuality is A-OK.” ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/53 "2014-02-27T19:36:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: Hardly; history demonstrates otherwise. Those people weren’t and aren’t Christians. They may have called themselves, but they plainly rejected the teachings of the Christ. Christianity is not the Church. Christianity is the Christ. The Church has, for nearly two thousand years, rejected the Christ while dishonestly calling itself the house of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/54 "2014-02-27T19:46:30Z")
Thanks for clearing that up! > [@steronz](#): > > Step 1) “I’m a Christian, which means I get my morals from the One True Source, Jesus Christ and the Bible, which says that homosexuality is wrong.” > Step 2) **No True Scotsman Fallacy** > Step 3) “I’m a Christian, which means I get my morals from the One True Source, Jesus Christ and the Bible, which says that homosexuality is A-OK.” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/55 "2014-02-27T19:47:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As others have said, we’ve abolished slavery and that’s a much bigger scriptural issue. And we’ve legalized divorce - that’s clearly non-biblical. So we’ve already moved past the point of following the Bible when we choose to do so. Could you expand on divorce being nonbiblical? I may be forgetting something, but we Jews have had rabbinically sanctioned divorce for at least a few thousand years. You go to a bet din ( a religious court of three rabbis) and say why you want the divorce (a woman can get a divorce on the grounds that her husband doesn’t have sex with her often enough. Maimonides made a list of just how often was required based on the husband’s occupation). If the court agrees you receive a get, a religious certificate of divorce. Back To The OP As a Jew, I have to deal with one line that prohibits homosexuality. There are plenty of fun ways to interpret that line. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/56 "2014-02-27T19:47:12Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Those people weren’t and aren’t Christians. They weren’t True Scotsmen, either. ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/57 "2014-02-27T19:48:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Thanks for clearing that up! It’s not a “No True Scotsman” to say that no six-footer is actually 5’10" tall. Similarly, it’s not a No True Scotsman to say that no one who thoroughly rejects the fundamental precepts of Christianity is in fact not a Christian. Do you seriously not grasp the conceptual distinction between formal and informal fallacies? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/58 "2014-02-27T19:51:19Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > It’s not a “No True Scotsman” to say that no six-footer is actually 5’10" tall. Similarly, it’s not a No True Scotsman to say that no one who thoroughly rejects the fundamental precepts of Christianity is in fact not a Christian. A Christian is simply someone who says they are Christian, there are no such “fundamental precepts”. Christianity is defined by the beliefs of the people who practice it, not by a semi-mythical dead guy. And for most of the history of Christianity, the vast bulk of Christians have hated homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/59 "2014-02-27T19:56:40Z")
> [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > It’s not a “No True Scotsman” to say that no six-footer is actually 5’10" tall. OK, sure. > [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](#): > > Similarly, it’s not a No True Scotsman to say that no one who thoroughly rejects the fundamental precepts of Christianity is in fact not a Christian. Not the same thing. The “Hate the sin, love the sinner” types certainly believe they’re following the fundamental precepts of Christianity. That you disagree with them doesn’t make them any less Christian. Unless Jesus comes forth and clarifies what his fundamental precepts are, there will always be differing interpretations; rejecting some of them as “not really Christian” is very much the definition of the NTS fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/60 "2014-02-27T22:13:05Z")
The arrow of causation goes the other way. Because the Bible’s authority has been eroded, gay acceptance happened. Blame the Enlightenment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414.md?page=4)