# Will gay acceptance erode the Bible's authority? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414 "2014-02-27T14:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/81 "2014-02-28T14:32:57Z")
As **Skammer** pointed out, Christians changing acceptance of SSM has a recent historical parallel in the Christians changing acceptance of divorce. There’s a lot of info on the web of how those viewpoints changed. [Like here.](http://atheism.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/MarriageDivorce.htm). In my experience as a psychologist, whenever believers of any doctrine change their views, they usually describe that to themselves as being “modern and enlightened” as opposed to being “oldfasioned” then. They avoid thinking about their switch in terms of being wrong then, right now. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/82 "2014-02-28T14:44:14Z")
**Maastricht** that’s unlikely to make Christians particularly comfortable. Many of us think that our churches went much too far in terms of accepting the divorce culture (or more precisely, remarriage after divorce). It actually wasn’t till 2003 or so that the Church of England (the parent church of my denomination) allowed divorced people with a living former spouse to be married in church. I don’t think the change they made in 2003 was a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/83 "2014-02-28T15:25:16Z")
why would it matter whether you are married in a church or not? early Christians were not that was all added when they made up the Christian religion ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/84 "2014-02-28T16:09:00Z")
Time out. Do I understand correctly that Jesus specifically spoke out against divorce and never said a word about homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/85 "2014-02-28T17:05:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Time out. Do I understand correctly that Jesus specifically spoke out against divorce and never said a word about homosexuality? That’s correct. Divorce == bad, teh ghey == _crickets_. (Although the divorce passage in Matthew could readily be seen as an explicit endorsement of “one man, one woman.”) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/86 "2014-02-28T17:14:15Z")
Also, since divorce is more common and happens mainly to straight people, of course it will be more likely to be ignored as something biblically frowned upon. Being gay, on the other hand, ain’t most of the target audience’s problem, so it’s okay to vilify even if it’s never been discussed by the subject of their faith. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/87 "2014-02-28T18:30:40Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Also, since divorce is more common and happens mainly to straight people, of course it will be more likely to be ignored as something biblically frowned upon. Being gay, on the other hand, ain’t most of the target audience’s problem, so it’s okay to vilify even if it’s never been discussed by the subject of their faith. Depends on the church. Some make it very clear that being divorced disqualifies you from serving in a leadership position in the church for life. (Men only, that belief usually goes along with the belief that women can’t do it at all). They treat it differently than being gay in that it’s a single sin in the past you can repent of where actively having same sex sex is an ongoing sin that you are living in. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/88 "2014-02-28T18:36:02Z")
Leviticus 20:13 ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. New International Version (NIV) seems pretty clear that according to the bible homosexuality is an abomination ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/89 "2014-02-28T18:38:06Z")
Assuming (1) you’re Jewish, and (2) you accept that translation, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/90 "2014-02-28T18:40:40Z")
As a Christian myself, I agree that many Christians have been terribly hypocritical regarding their tolerance of divorce vs. SSM; _especially_ regarding Jesus’ condemnation of the former and silence on the latter. (Not that we would expect Jesus to have said anything about homosexuality at the time anyway - his apparent silence really cannot be used as an argument in either direction.) Even Paul’s writings can be dismissed as referring to something different (temple prostitution, or pederasty, or other acts) or as being simply wrong or mistaken. But you would think it would be much harder to gloss over the divorce thing. If you ask conservative Christians, they’ll usually acknowledge that every divorce is a tragedy and not part of God’s will; but that we must be compassionate and forgiving toward divorcees. For some reason compassion escapes them when dealing with gays and lesbians however. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/91 "2014-02-28T18:41:11Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Leviticus 20:13 > > ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." > > 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. > > New International Version (NIV) > > seems pretty clear that according to the bible homosexuality is an abomination What about men who lie with marmite? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/92 "2014-02-28T18:41:56Z")
There shall be hellfire upon their penises until they wipe it off. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/93 "2014-02-28T18:44:16Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Depends on the church. Some make it very clear that being divorced disqualifies you from serving in a leadership position in the church for life. (Men only, that belief usually goes along with the belief that women can’t do it at all). They treat it differently than being gay in that it’s a single sin in the past you can repent of where actively having same sex sex is an ongoing sin that you are living in. That’s not how I read Jesus’ line. It looks like you would be continuously committing adultery, or at least every time you slept with the new spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/94 "2014-02-28T18:51:28Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > That’s not how I read Jesus’ line. It looks like you would be continuously committing adultery, or at least every time you slept with the new spouse. I would agree, which is why the leadership in the church is prohibited. I’m not sure how they would respond to that. 1 Corinthians is clear that a woman is an adulteress if she remarries while her husband lives. They seem to be hazier on cases where it is unknown if the first spouse is alive. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/95 "2014-02-28T19:06:15Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > seems pretty clear that according to the bible homosexuality is an abomination Point of order: That particular translation and interpretation makes it (relatively) clear that homosexual _intercourse_ is an abomination, not homosexuality _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/96 "2014-02-28T19:20:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Point of order: That particular translation and interpretation makes it (relatively) clear that homosexual _intercourse_ is an abomination, not homosexuality _per se_. Point of odor, that same section also requires the death penalty for adultery, anyone who curses their father or mother, sex with your daughter-in-law (but not your sister? Weird). Also, men who actually have sex with animals are put to death (along with the animal), but woman only have to approach the animal with the intention of having sex with it to merit the death penalty (along with the animal). That section of the bible is definitely something I want to model my laws around. Also, while we’re at it, visiting a fortune teller or having sex with a woman during her period both require shunning. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/97 "2014-02-28T19:21:15Z")
Truthfully, the prohibition on remarriage after divorce is one of the best-attested, strongest, and most unequivocal things attributed to Jesus. I’ll quote here from a recent comment thread from the Christian blog ‘Ship of Fools’: "I think a key point to remember here is that Jesus does not usually promulgate law. It is in fact striking just how little there is of any definitive statement what his followers must do. He practically always teaches principles, and where He touches on law, He teaches right interpretations. The gospel is almost entirely “meta-law” then…OK. But I can think of a few instances where this is decidedly not the case. Where instead Jesus says with utmost clarity that his followers must do something specific, where he promulgates law and lays it down in the same breath. And characteristically, this is over and against Jewish custom, flies in the fact of what people expect and is met with disbelief, shock and even anger. One occasion we have been discussing, the (re-)establishment of the sacrament of marriage…The whole setup of these in scripture, the very extraordinary nature of how they are presented, how people react to them and how they are later reaffirmed by St Paul with explicit reference to Christ, say to me one thing: This is Christ executing His Divinity as law-giver, not law-explainer/interpreter. This is God speaking from the mountain. This the Teacher speaking from His Seat. These are stone tablets. There was no intention for wiggle room here concerning what we ought to do. None. At. All." I think the only two really intellectually honest positions here are the liberal Protestant position (which holds that lifetime marriage is a nice ideal that is almost impossible to live up to in practice, and that we can always rely on God’s mercy trumping His justice) or the Roman Catholic position which forbids all divorce, anywhere, anytime. I more or less side with the liberal Protestant, although I don’t believe in Christian churches performing remarriages, but the Catholic position, given their premises, is intellectually entirely coherent. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/98 "2014-02-28T19:24:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Point of odor, that same section also requires the death penalty for adultery, anyone who curses their father or mother, sex with your daughter-in-law (but not your sister? Weird). Also, men who actually have sex with animals are put to death (along with the animal), but woman only have to approach the animal with the intention of having sex with it to merit the death penalty (along with the animal). That section of the bible is definitely something I want to model my laws around. > > Also, while we’re at it, visiting a fortune teller or having sex with a woman during her period both require shunning. It’s all irrelevant for Christians, anyway. We aren’t subject to the Law of Moses. We are supposed to listen to what Paul says, though of course there can be legitimate debate about what he meant, what premises He was relying on, and how he might have changed His thoughts if the context and premises were different. As well as debate about how well Paul is channeling God. But the debate for Christians really should be about Paul and Jude, not Leviticus. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/99 "2014-02-28T19:24:46Z")
Don’t forget Paul also taught that you should be celibate for life unless you just couldn’t handle not having sex. In which case you’d better get married. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414/100 "2014-02-28T19:57:02Z")
> [@andros](#): > > (Although the divorce passage in Matthew could readily be seen as an explicit endorsement of “one man, one woman.”) Which is a bit confusing when added to all the scriptural requirements for liturgical offices, since they include a requirement to have only one wife, hence implying that having more than one was not uncommon. I guess you could interpret that as a requirement to be married, but then that would seem to contradict Paul’s idea that it’s better to remain unmarried if you can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gay-acceptance-erode-the-bibles-authority/682414.md?page=6)