# Will gays destroy society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755 "2005-05-06T22:39:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/121 "2005-05-09T22:30:35Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Are you suggesting that gays are a race? Are you suggesting that black people are a race? ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/122 "2005-05-09T22:35:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > ??? Fanny Hill–I thought you said you had read it. I thought you might be referring to still another book. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Correcting spelling is generally considered boorish behavior. Most of us type a lot, here, on other newsgroups, and at work, and we do not always catch every typo, even after re-reading. With that background, we have a general understanding that typos will get by our review processes and that nearly everyone will post them occasionally. Rather than engaging in petty sniping over such trivia, we generally recognize that it is a byproduct of the conditions under which we are posting and do not call attention to typos in others’ posts. In fact, we invoke the name of our Administrator in noting in Gaudere’s Law that a person who makes a point of (rudely) correcting another’s spelling will nearly always suffer a typo in their own posts: hence vomit **t** ing. > > [/unsolicited advice] Point taken. But c’mon. A word here and there, alright. But 3 or 4, or more, in a short paragraph? Pure sloppiness. Difficult reading, and undermining of whatever information one is trying to convey. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/123 "2005-05-09T22:43:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that gays are a race? No. He is indicating that homosexuality, like perceived race, is an innate condition over which a person exercises no control. To condemn a person based on conditions over which they have no control is unfair (and, ultimatley, foolish). ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/124 "2005-05-09T22:45:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Are you suggesting that black people are a race? Okay, let’s take it from this angle: are you suggesting that homosexuals, which apparently occur across all races and cultures, are themselves a racial group, in the same sense that African-Americans, and Caucasians, and Asians, are identified as “races.” If you are, fine with me. But what are you trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/125 "2005-05-09T22:45:46Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Point taken. But c’mon. A word here and there, alright. But 3 or 4, or more, in a short paragraph? Pure sloppiness. Difficult reading, and undermining of whatever information one is trying to convey. ::Yawn:: Can someone wake me up when he posts something in the right forum? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/126 "2005-05-09T23:05:51Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Okay, let’s take it from this angle: are you suggesting that homosexuals, which apparently occur across all races and cultures, are themselves a racial group, in the same sense that African-Americans, and Caucasians, and Asians, are identified as “races.” There is no such thing as “race.” That is a word with no biological meaning so the question can’t be answered as such. Neither gay people, nor black people nor “caucasians” (another archaic term with no biological meaning) nor Asians are “races.” All of those groups are _equally_ not “races,” just as they are equally not trees. > [@](#): > > If you are, fine with me. But what are you trying to say? The point is that sexual orientation is an innate, fixed, and immutable part of a person to exact same degree as skin color or gender or height. Making moral (or “spiritual”) judgements about it is just as stupid, illogical and offensive as making judgements based on ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/127 "2005-05-09T23:43:39Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > What damage, for God’s sake, and how is it beyond containment? Must not be too robust a group of thinkers around here to have anyone pleading, “please stop,” as if the whole board is about to fall apart irrevocably. It is beyond containment because you’re slinging it out like a drunk man pissing in a rainstorm. The comments you’ve made are foolish on manifold levels and have too many layers of error to tear apart and fix. You’ve reduced Western philosophy to religious dogma and Eastern philosophy to the musings of a Baltimore crackpot. You’ve ignored every philosopher from Lao Tsu to Schopenhauer. You’ve made the kind of hopeless mess that only demolition will cure. You should apologize for wasting everyone’s time, and for wasting space on the server. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/128 "2005-05-10T00:31:51Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > (I’ll also note that last week’s episode of **Penn & Teller: Bullshit!** tackled the same topic, and made a decent argument that the claim “One man and one woman is best for the kids” is a bunch of hooey.) > [@Polerius](#): > > Can you tell us what that argument was? I was reluctant to go further, simply because I didn’t have anything more citable than “Go see the episode” (since I wasn’t writing down references or anything), but to briefly summarize off the top of my head, they featured various social scientists and anthropologists who argued: [ul] [li]The idea of “one man, one woman” is a relatively recent idea – “One man, many women” has been around longer.[/li][li]In some animal social structures, “boink whoever you can” has been a viable long-term arrangement that works.[/li][li]An 18-year-long study of children raised by homosexual couples show no notable variation in behavior problems compared with children raised by heterosexual couples. The only difference noted was that the children in homosexual households were more likely to encounter homophobia (from outsiders) than the children in heterosexual households.[/li][li]The most dominant characteristic that determines whether or not a child is raised to become a productive member of society is the education level and financial status of the parents, not their gender.[/li][li]Examples of non-traditional couples featured on the program included two lesbians raising two sons (one of the women was impregnated with sperm donated by her partner’s brother) and a foursome (two men and two women) raising three kids between them.[/li][li]The divorce rate in the US is 50% for heterosexual couples. If that’s the anti-gay-marriage camp’s idea of a “fundamental” family structure, we’re screwed. ;)[/li][/ul] Oh, and Penn gets in bed with a half-dozen scantily-clad women (including a Barbara Eden lookalike), Teller makes out with a gorilla, three nekked women grace the TV briefly, and the two demonstrate obscene hand puppet shadows. 😃 And thank Primus, this time around there weren’t any 80-year-old men demonstrating how they reconstructed their foreskins… ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/129 "2005-05-10T00:52:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It is beyond containment because you’re slinging it out like a drunk man pissing in a rainstorm. Very evocative imagery! Not sure how it fits, but it’s evocative nonetheless, of something… > [@Liberal](#): > > The comments you’ve made are foolish on manifold levels and have too many layers of error to tear apart and fix. You’ve reduced Western philosophy to religious dogma and Eastern philosophy to the musings of a Baltimore crackpot. Ridiculous assertions. Review the posts. And reread Atkinson’s (Ramacharaka’s) books, if you’ve ever read them at all. Crackpot! I love it! > [@Liberal](#): > > You’ve ignored every philosopher from Lao Tsu to Schopenhauer. I’m familiar with both. BTW, there were philosophers before Lao Tsu and after Schopenhouer. > [@Liberal](#): > > You’ve made the kind of hopeless mess that only demolition will cure. Attaboy! If you don’t, won’t, and indeed can’t, understand it, DESTROY it! That’ll teach it a lesson! > [@Liberal](#): > > You should apologize for wasting everyone’s time, and for wasting space on the server. How, exactly, did _I_ waste anyone’s time? I made my posts and others responded. I didn’t force anyone to respond; they did so because they had a response they wanted to give, and voluntarily took the time to give it. More power to ‘em, I say. As for your concern for the server and its space, very touching. I’ve paid my yearly dues, as I assume you have as well, and it is not up to me, or you, to determine what’s a waste of space or not. I’m sure the server isn’t busting at the seams as a result of this one thread. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/130 "2005-05-10T05:21:46Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > I agree with the assertion I cited. But this particular position is not “mine.” I did not come up with it. Nor am I interested in propounding some particular agenda of my own. Again, and for about the fourth time, this is what has been said, and I happen to agree. At least have the integrity to take some responsibility for your beliefs. The fact that you didn’t originate the belief doesn’t relieve you of any burden of proof. You’ve quoted an assertion with which you agree, then claim to be not “interested in propounding some particular agenda of [your] own.” What this means is that you have no intention whatsoever of backing up your assertion. So what is the point of this entire discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/131 "2005-05-10T11:15:47Z")
> [@drmark2000](#): > > Ridiculous assertions. Review the posts. And reread Atkinson’s (Ramacharaka’s) books, if you’ve ever read them at all. Crackpot! I love it! Just so people can see what sort of quackery you are recommending and lauding as factually more sophisticated than Western philosophy, here is a link to [Thought Vibration Or The Law Of Attraction In The Thought World](http://williamwalkeratkinson.wwwhubs.com/tvib.htm#16). An excerpt: \*We speak learnedly of the Law of Gravitation, but ignore that equally wonderful manifestation, THE LAW OF ATTRACTION IN THE THOUGHT WORLD. We are familiar with that wonderful manifestation of Law which draws and holds together the atoms of which matter is composed - we recognize the power of the law that attracts bodies to the earth, that holds the circling worlds in their places, but we close our eyes to the mighty law that draws to us the things we desire or fear, that makes or mars our lives. When we come to see that Thought is a force - a manifestation of energy - having a magnet-like power of attraction, we will begin to understand the why and wherefore of many things that have heretofore seemed dark to us. There is no study that will so well repay the student for his time and trouble as the study of the workings of this mighty law of the world of Thought - the Law of Attraction. When we think we send out vibrations of a fine ethereal substance, which are as real as the vibrations manifesting light, heat, electricity, magnetism. That these vibrations are not evident to our five senses is no proof that they do not exist. A powerful magnet will send out vibrations and exert a force sufficient to attract to itself a piece of steel weighing a hundred pounds, but we can neither see, taste, smell, hear nor feel the mighty force. These thought vibrations, likewise, cannot be seen, tasted, smelled, heard nor felt in the ordinary way; although it is true there are on record cases of persons peculiarly sensitive to psychic impressions who have perceived powerful thought-waves, and very many of us can testify that we have distinctly felt the thought vibrations of others, both whilst in the presence of the sender and at a distance. Telepathy and its kindred phenomena are not idle dreams.\* Garbage. Pure garbage. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/132 "2005-05-10T12:29:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. He is indicating that\*\* homosexuality, like perceived race, is an innate condition over which a person exercises no control.\*\* To condemn a person based on conditions over which they have no control is unfair (and, ultimatley, foolish). I’ve seen this assertion made several times here. Do you, or anyone really believe thats true 100% of the time? I’m not up on any scientific studies on this but I’ve met people who {as I posted before} turned to their own gender for comfort and acceptance because they were emotionaly wounded. I say this merely as an observation. Haven’t others encountered this? Regarding the OP. I don’t believe gay marrige will harm society in any way. I haven’t commented on Dmarks posts becuase I found his first one interesting but about as valid as any other opinion that has no chance of being proven or unproven. I don’t expect to see an increaseing rise in homsexulaity in society other than what occurs when acceptance means being more open about it. It seems that a certain percentage of society is gay and our reluctance to accept that fact has only brought persecution and emotional problems to the gay community and shame on the homophobes. Have you noticed how fear and bigotry doesn’t survive well as generations pass and something that was once unusual becomes more commonly accepted. Look at interacial marriage. Once a huge social stigma which the bigots tried to keep illegal. Now so common that to openly critisize it quickly labels you as “racist asshole” I see the same trend in the gay community. With each passing generation homosexuality becomes more openly accetable. In a few generations. I predict the stigma will be on those who denounce it. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/133 "2005-05-10T12:48:06Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ve seen this assertion made several times here. Do you, or anyone really believe thats true 100% of the time? Yes, I really believe that. So, you call yourself gay, but are only going with a guy because you want emotional comfort, but you are really attracted to women? You are straight. You are going out with a guy, mostly for emotional comfort, but you are attracted to women and men, heavy on the women side? You are Bi. Some girl who only has a lesbian affair until college ends? Same story. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Look at interacial marriage. Once a huge social stigma which the bigots tried to keep illegal. Now so common that to openly criticize it quickly labels you as “racist asshole” I see. So, are there any legitimate grounds for criticize it, or it (as I suspect) wholly appropriate to have a knee-jerk reaction of claiming racism every time interracial marriage is criticized. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/134 "2005-05-10T15:09:44Z")
Check out tomorrow’s [www.pnas.com](http://www.pnas.com) on an article from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm on how homosexual men and heterosexual women respond to the same feromones that heterosexual men don’t respond to. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/135 "2005-05-10T15:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not up on any scientific studies on this but I’ve met people who {as I posted before} turned to their own gender for comfort and acceptance because they were emotionaly wounded. Based on my limited reading on the topic (so I could easily have missed some serious work that refutes it) along with my personal observations, I would say that sexual orientation of most humans lies along a continuum, with most people being “mostly” heterosexual or “mostly” homosexual. For some, a traumatic event may provide the impetus to shift farther along the continuum away from their “normal” orientation and, since it is a continuum, some are closer to the center where attractions (or repulsions) are more nearly equal in either direction. However, I have never encountered a person (in scientific literature or in life) who truly “converted” from one orientation to another and I have never encountered a person who claims that they had to “learn” their orientation. Barring some specific new evidence, I will hold to the observation that orientation is innate. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/136 "2005-05-10T19:45:41Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > ::Yawn:: Can someone wake me up when he posts something in the right forum? You just keep sleeping, Scotty-boy. Much easier than thinking, or working. ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/137 "2005-05-10T19:48:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It is beyond containment because you’re slinging it out like a drunk man pissing in a rainstorm. The comments you’ve made are foolish on manifold levels and have too many layers of error to tear apart and fix. You’ve reduced Western philosophy to religious dogma and Eastern philosophy to the musings of a Baltimore crackpot. You’ve ignored every philosopher from Lao Tsu to Schopenhauer. You’ve made the kind of hopeless mess that only demolition will cure. You should apologize for wasting everyone’s time, and for wasting space on the server. Also, you give up so eeeaaasssiiiiiillly. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/138 "2005-05-10T20:00:02Z")
dmark, should we all just go away, or are you ever going to actually respond properly to the critiques raised about your virulent hate speech? You’re run around, not-debate strategy is completely inappropriate in this forum. Either follow the rules here, or please, just stop posting in this thread. Go jack off to the works of your Eastern Bigots or something. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/139 "2005-05-10T20:37:12Z")
OK If everyone has now expressed enough contempt for various other posters, I would strongly suggest that everyone stick to the topic and leave any further personal observations for the **Pit**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755/140 "2005-05-10T20:47:43Z")
There is something beneficial about marriage, I think, when it comes to society. It is a way to build a support system not just for a child, but for adults. Person A might be an only child and an orphan, but can marry Person B and gain social support. That sort of interlinking of families has to be a good thing. Of course, that’s one of the reasons I’d argue that gay marriage is so important. Withholding that sort of interlinking from gay persons is cruel. Yes, sure, it is available without “marriage” to some extent, but marriage is one of two ways within our cultural framework where someone can become part of another family (the other being adoption). We simply don’t view other arrangements with the same dignity. So, is marriage important? I’d say yes. Is gay marriage less important? I’d say only to the extent that it would have fewer participants. Is gay marriage a threat to het marriage? I don’t see how. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-gays-destroy-society/302755.md?page=8)