# Will Hackers cause car crashes or other problems? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329 "2015-02-10T20:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/1 "2015-02-10T20:39:55Z")
From this [CNN story](http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/car-hack/), the question is raised about whether hackers will be able to cause your car to crash among other things. - We don’t yet live in a world where hackers can crash your car. But computer engineers widely agree we’re heading in that direction by connecting our cars to the Internet. … Cars are now connected to the Internet. That means someday in the not-too-distant future, a hacker could knock your car off the highway. \* Could some imaginative dickwhistle cause enough cars to become disabled thus causing a traffic jam of unseen proportions at rush hour? Perhaps cause cars to accelerate in unsafe weather? I’m not liking any of this. If you read the article, you see that several of the automakers are now using advanced technology to track you, where you are and how you drive. I’m not liking that either. Picture your next car with a HAL 2000 computer. It’s here. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/2 "2015-02-10T21:31:55Z")
Not _my_ Honda Del Sol. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/3 "2015-02-10T21:48:44Z")
Eventually, yeah. They’ll shut down a power grid…some day. They’ll open a diverting switch on a high-speed railroad…some day. They’ll crash cars…and airliners. Meanwhile, all of these facilities are susceptible to ordinary vandalism. You could drop a brick from a bridge over the high-speed railroad. Bricks have been dropped onto freeways, killing drivers. The giant power links coming in to southern California from Arizona go through hundreds of miles of empty desert: any jackass could go out there and knock down a pylon. We have a civilization that depends on high concentrations of energy. This has been true since we first kept fires going inside our houses. We’ve had some of our houses burn down ever since then, too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/4 "2015-02-10T21:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Cars are now connected to the Internet. Not mine. Yet another reason I have for sticking with the car I have, which was paid off years ago, and not buying a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/5 "2015-02-10T22:13:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not mine. > > Yet another reason I have for sticking with the car I have, which was paid off years ago, and not buying a new one. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/6 "2015-02-10T22:22:13Z")
So basically we’re all Commander Adama. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/7 "2015-02-10T23:06:23Z")
_ **Will** _ They? That horse is at least a thousand miles away by now. And the padlock you’ve got wouldn’t confine an enraged chipmunk. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/8 "2015-02-11T00:13:54Z")
The question is, will consumers be able to purchase cars that are NOT connected to the internet in the future? Other than rapidly aging used cars. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/9 "2015-02-11T00:27:12Z")
The thing is that at this point the computer that runs your radio/navigation (and which might have an internet or onstar type connection) and the computer modules that actually run the engine/abs/cruise control/etc are completely separate. The ability of the computers to interact is completely dependent on the actual physical connections between them. At this point, it’s mostly limited to the control modules sending diagnostic info (and stuff like mileage and fuel consumption) to the dashboard computer. The dashboard computer _might_ be able to turn the engine on and off if it has a remote start function and (annoyingly IMHO) a lot of them run the HVAC, but other than that it can’t actually “control the car” in any meaningful way. The only way I’d think it ever _would_ make sense to link the control modules would be if we started allowing self-driving cars without human operators, but that’s a lonnnnnnng way off. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/10 "2015-02-11T00:38:31Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The thing is that at this point the computer that runs your radio/navigation (and which might have an internet or onstar type connection) and the computer modules that actually run the engine/abs/cruise control/etc are completely separate. The ability of the computers to interact is completely dependent on the actual physical connections between them. At this point, it’s mostly limited to the control modules sending diagnostic info (and stuff like mileage and fuel consumption) to the dashboard computer. The dashboard computer _might_ be able to turn the engine on and off if it has a remote start function and (annoyingly IMHO) a lot of them run the HVAC, but other than that it can’t actually “control the car” in any meaningful way. > > The only way I’d think it ever _would_ make sense to link the control modules would be if we started allowing self-driving cars without human operators, but that’s a lonnnnnnng way off. Not only can it be done, it has been done. [http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/06/bmw-hack-cyber-security-warning-feature-video/](http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/06/bmw-hack-cyber-security-warning-feature-video/) I would also have thought it would make sense to keep these modules seperate, but BMW at least doesn’t seem to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/11 "2015-02-11T01:19:32Z")
If it became a problem then it would be a simple fix. Computers have to be connected to an antenna. Disconnect the antenna. If it’s using the electrical wiring as an antenna then it would be a matter of installing a block between the connector. For drivers who wish to have On-Star type connections then a relay is installed. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/12 "2015-02-11T01:26:59Z")
As long as various governments demand “access at will” to the web (the Internet was CREATED by the US Department of Defense), there will always be a manner for hacking. When Unix was first sighted (1980’s, IIRC) it had been created by a group of grad students and had something on the order of 56 KNOWN trap doors. We used it anyways. Coming soon: Faraday cages for your car. Of course failing to allow the National Safe Highways Adminstration to control your car will be a very serious “Moral Failing” for which you will need “corrective therapy”. Go re-read 1984. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/13 "2015-02-11T01:27:13Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > Not only can it be done, it has been done. > > [http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/06/bmw-hack-cyber-security-warning-feature-video/](http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/06/bmw-hack-cyber-security-warning-feature-video/) > > I would also have thought it would make sense to keep these modules seperate, but BMW at least doesn’t seem to agree. It’s clear that on some cars you can wirelessly access the infotainment and security computers, which allows you to do things like unlock the doors and bypass the security to start and stop the engine. It’s also clear that some people have been able to take control of the engine and braking system on some cars, **but** in everything I’ve read with the latter case, they were accessing the computers through the OBD-II port, not the infotainment system. They still would have needed to have a device physically connected to the car at some point to do it. I think a lot of news articles on the subject are conflating the two situations and claiming that you can wirelessly control the drivetrain of the car, which I don’t believe is actually the case. Both of those two situations above are serious security problems, but they don’t amount to the idea of hackers being able to remotely take control of cars and crash them at will. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/14 "2015-02-11T01:47:18Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The thing is that at this point the computer that runs your radio/navigation (and which might have an internet or onstar type connection) and the computer modules that actually run the engine/abs/cruise control/etc are completely separate. The ability of the computers to interact is completely dependent on the actual physical connections between them. At this point, it’s mostly limited to the control modules sending diagnostic info (and stuff like mileage and fuel consumption) to the dashboard computer. The dashboard computer _might_ be able to turn the engine on and off if it has a remote start function and (annoyingly IMHO) a lot of them run the HVAC, but other than that it can’t actually “control the car” in any meaningful way. > > The only way I’d think it ever _would_ make sense to link the control modules would be if we started allowing self-driving cars without human operators, but that’s a lonnnnnnng way off. That’s not true anymore. Teslas, for example, allow over the air firmware updates that can change the engine timings and suspension profiles of the car. All updates have to be digitally signed by Tesla which means theoretically, you would require access to Tesla’s private key to send an update but it’s not inconceivable that you could exploit a bug in the update code to perform a malicious update. OTA updates offer so many benefits that it’s hard to imagine other car companies not implementing it in the near future. Tesla is run by a Paypal co-founder so presumably they’re able to get some decent security people working on the update mechanism but I’m not at all confident that Detroit automakers know how to implement secure OTA. Still though, I find the fears of people hacking into cars somewhat overblown. There aren’t many people in the world who seem to be motivated by random acts of carnage. Huge parts of critical infrastructure such as power grids and water treatment has been known insecure for years and yet the number of attacks against them is remarkably low. Undoubtedly, state level actors have collected known attacks for years and, if there were to be a sufficiently large conflict, those exploits would be used. I imagine the same will happen to bugs around car hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/15 "2015-02-11T02:41:20Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Still though, I find the fears of people hacking into cars somewhat overblown. I would agree with that. It does still seem to require physical access to get at things like engine control, brakes and steering. > [@Shalmanese](#): > > There aren’t many people in the world who seem to be motivated by random acts of carnage. Huge parts of critical infrastructure such as power grids and water treatment has been known insecure for years and yet the number of attacks against them is remarkably low. Undoubtedly, state level actors have collected known attacks for years and, if there were to be a sufficiently large conflict, those exploits would be used. I imagine the same will happen to bugs around car hardware. I’m not sure I agree with this. There seem to be a lot of people who just don’t get that actions taken “on-line” actually have repercussions in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/16 "2015-02-11T02:49:16Z")
Even if cars are occasionally hacked they’ll still be safer than cars that occasionally have a DUI driver. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/17 "2015-02-11T03:57:03Z")
From 2007 … > [@](#): > > FORT MYERS: Drivers hear it all the time - lock you car to help keep thieves away. But the ABC7 Whistleblower team discovered why pressing the lock button may actually entice a new breed of car thieves! By no means are we advising you not to lock your car, but here’s the deal. Most cars now come with remote key locks. Every lock comes with a code, but that code can be cracked which means a thief can potentially break into your car simply by walking up and opening the door. We’re not going to share the details on how this works but we will say this much, every key remote comes with codes. Now, international researchers have found a way to crack the codes which means if a thief can do it, they can get into your car without even smashing the window. [http://www.nbc-2.com/story/10687648/thieves-targeting-cars-with-keyless-entry](http://www.nbc-2.com/story/10687648/thieves-targeting-cars-with-keyless-entry) From 2011 … > [@](#): > > Modern smart keys use radio frequencies to let drivers unlock and start a vehicle without fumbling with a key fob. Now European researchers have found such systems can be hacked, letting thieves easily steal your car. [How Hackers Can Use Smart Keys To Steal Cars](http://jalopnik.com/5736774/how-hackers-can-use-smart-keys-to-steal-cars) January 2015 … > [@](#): > > BMW responded quickly to a report of a potential security gap in the data transmissions to and from the carmaker’s connected vehicles. The German premium car group said it had closed the security gap with “a new configuration.” The quick action by BMW underscores how serious the industry is taking data security, which is a growing concern as all cars are rapidly being equipped with systems that are always connected to the outside world. > The ADAC, Germany’s largest automobile club, had discovered a potential security gap in BMW’s ConnectedDrive systems. What the ADAC found was that the cars could be opened from the outside with the help of a cellphone. The club said it had run tests of several cars, which had confirmed its findings. The data security problem affects around 2.2 million BMW, Mini and Rolls Royce vehicles. These have been equipped with ConnectedDrive technology since 2010. [http://www.automotiveit.com/bmw-responds-quickly-to-report-of-possible-security-breach/news/id-009995](http://www.automotiveit.com/bmw-responds-quickly-to-report-of-possible-security-breach/news/id-009995) Two days ago … > [@](#): > > Cars these days have more in common with smart phones than the Model-T. But a new [report](http://www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/markey-report-reveals-automobile-security-and-privacy-vulnerabilities) from Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) warns that the increasing technical complexity of vehicles is leaving drivers’ security and privacy at risk. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2015/02/09/senator-your-futuristic-car-is-putting-your-privacy-and-security-at-risk/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2015/02/09/senator-your-futuristic-car-is-putting-your-privacy-and-security-at-risk/) It’s been known for a while. Doing anything about it is another story … ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/18 "2015-02-11T04:34:15Z")
As I think I mentioned upthread, my car does not have any electronic locking features. The locks are strictly mechanical. Well, yeah, I can’t lock/unlock it remotely, but on the upside the locks can’t be hacked electronically, either. That’s why I asked if in the future people will have the option to buy cars that _don’t_ have these bells and whistles. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/19 "2015-02-11T04:52:19Z")
If this “dream” of high-speed, closely-spaced pods zipping around automatically is to happen, every car which uses roads above some class level will need to participate. A manually operated car trying to keep up with the speed and complexity of “the Cloud” would be a disaster. Maybe, at first, only certain stretches of interstate or high-density commute routes will require computer control. Within a generation, it will be certain remote roads reserved for “old farts who still think they can run a car all by themselves”. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/20 "2015-02-11T06:17:42Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > When Unix was first sighted (1980’s, IIRC) UNIX was written in 1970. The rest of the crap you posted is not worth responding to. > [@Shalmanese](#): > > That’s not true anymore. Teslas, for example, allow over the air firmware updates that can change the engine timings and suspension profiles of the car. All updates have to be digitally signed by Tesla which means theoretically, you would require access to Tesla’s private key to send an update but it’s not inconceivable that you could exploit a bug in the update code to perform a malicious update. > > OTA updates offer so many benefits that it’s hard to imagine other car companies not implementing it in the near future. Tesla is run by a Paypal co-founder so presumably they’re able to get some decent security people working on the update mechanism but I’m not at all confident that Detroit automakers know how to implement secure OTA. I don’t think you have the knowledge to make that assessment. Especially when you talk about the “engine timings” of Tesla’s cars. Stay in your lane, dude. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329.md?page=2)