# Will Hackers cause car crashes or other problems? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329 "2015-02-10T20:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/21 "2015-02-11T06:52:41Z")
Thanks for sharing your authoritative opinions. Aside from telling us we are not, in your opinion, qualified to speak, do you have any thoughts on the subject at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/22 "2015-02-11T10:09:57Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I don’t think you have the knowledge to make that assessment. Especially when you talk about the “engine timings” of Tesla’s cars. Stay in your lane, dude. Elon Musk himself tweeted [Tesla P85D 0 to 60mph acceleration will improve by ~0.1 sec soon via over-the-air software update to inverter algorithm](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/560898568748531712). There was an earlier OTA update made after a Tesla caught fire from a piece of metal piercing the underside. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/23 "2015-02-11T13:39:27Z")
Not my car, they won’t… 1; it’s a 2007 VW Rabbit (Mk. V Golf), so minimal automation, no “black box” and the ECU is pretty basic 2; hydraulic power steering, not electric, hydraulic clutch, hydraulic brakes, cable operated handbrake 3; MANUAL transmission, so even if the ECU was compromised, all I need to do is push the clutch pedal in, disconnecting the engine from the transmission, and if the brakes act up, use the handbrake to slow and stop the car ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/24 "2015-02-11T14:28:03Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > There was an earlier OTA update made after a Tesla caught fire from a piece of metal piercing the underside. how did they deliver a titanium underbody shield via an OTA update? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/25 "2015-02-11T16:08:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s why I asked if in the future people will have the option to buy cars that _don’t_ have these bells and whistles. There will be a window in the future, that you will have a choice. After that, its cheaper to standardize on everything , to keep prices down from the auto suppliers. Depending on what you want, its going to have to be a third party after market mod, and as long as it is legal depending on your jurisdiction. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/26 "2015-02-11T16:36:10Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > how did they deliver a titanium underbody shield via an OTA update? Um, because they did both? [First, we have rolled out an over-the-air update to the air suspension that will result in greater ground clearance at highway speeds.](http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/mission-tesla) Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself further. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/27 "2015-02-11T17:01:05Z")
To all of those people who responded to let us know that their car is impervious to hacking: That’s not the point of the thread, congrats, you are poor like the rest of us. Back to the topic: [So many](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0813/Scientists-hack-into-cars-computers-control-brakes-engine) news articles imply that [brakes can be hacked.](http://www.citynews.ca/2015/02/10/automakers-need-to-do-more-to-stop-cyber-attacks-experts/) [According to wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire#Architecture_of_an_Electromechanical_Braking_System), only 2 car models on the planet have brake-by-wire, and even then these systems are described as semi- brake-by-wire. How would a hacker control braking response if 99.999% of the cars on the road have a direct hydraulic connection between your foot and the binders? Why does almost every news article imply that brake control is within a hackers ability? Is it bald-faced media sensationalism? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/28 "2015-02-11T17:20:53Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > To all of those people who responded to let us know that their car is impervious to hacking: That’s not the point of the thread, congrats, you are poor like the rest of us. > > Back to the topic: > [So many](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0813/Scientists-hack-into-cars-computers-control-brakes-engine) news articles imply that [brakes can be hacked.](http://www.citynews.ca/2015/02/10/automakers-need-to-do-more-to-stop-cyber-attacks-experts/) > > [According to wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire#Architecture_of_an_Electromechanical_Braking_System), only 2 car models on the planet have brake-by-wire, and even then these systems are described as semi- brake-by-wire. > > How would a hacker control braking response if 99.999% of the cars on the road have a direct hydraulic connection between your foot and the binders? Why does almost every news article imply that brake control is within a hackers ability? Is it bald-faced media sensationalism? cars with adaptive cruise control and/or forward collision avoidance can apply the brakes themselves. They aren’t “brake by wire” since the pedal is still mechanically connected to the booster/master cylinder, but they do have an actuator which can apply the brakes. I had a Lincoln MKz for a weekend which had all this, and it was eerie feeling the car stopping itself. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/29 "2015-02-11T18:40:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As I think I mentioned upthread, my car does not have any electronic locking features. The locks are strictly mechanical. Well, yeah, I can’t lock/unlock it remotely, but on the upside the locks can’t be hacked electronically, either. And still a thief can walk up to your car and unlock it in about 10 seconds with the right tools. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/30 "2015-02-11T19:30:26Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > cars with adaptive cruise control and/or forward collision avoidance can apply the brakes themselves. They aren’t “brake by wire” since the pedal is still mechanically connected to the booster/master cylinder, but they do have an actuator which can apply the brakes. I had a Lincoln MKz for a weekend which had all this, and it was eerie feeling the car stopping itself. Thank you **jz**. Still appreciative of your input on car threads. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/31 "2015-02-11T19:33:38Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > cars with adaptive cruise control and/or forward collision avoidance can apply the brakes themselves. They aren’t “brake by wire” since the pedal is still mechanically connected to the booster/master cylinder, but they do have an actuator which can apply the brakes. I had a Lincoln MKz for a weekend which had all this, and it was eerie feeling the car stopping itself. There are cars with brake by wire systems in production today, capable of autonomous braking with a decoupled brake actuator. With connected cars on the horizon and much of their data existing on a cloud, yes hackers will be able to mess with your car and your driving data. Your speed in every zone you drive in will be recorded and stored. A hacker could access and alter your recorded speed, causing you to get an undeserved ticket. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/32 "2015-02-11T19:44:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not mine. > > Yet another reason I have for sticking with the car I have, which was paid off years ago, and not buying a new one. Ditto. The 2000 Accord has 221,000 miles on it, and is still rolling along. If you want to hack into it, bring a hacksaw. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/33 "2015-02-11T19:51:24Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > And still a thief can walk up to your car and unlock it in about 10 seconds with the right tools. Oh, sure! But the thief has to go searching through parking lots for cars that are old enough that they’re drivable without the presence of that computer chip in the key. And since there are relatively few cars that old, we’ve got something like herd immunity here, because being a car thief just ain’t what it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/34 "2015-02-11T19:53:01Z")
Have you not played Watch Dogs? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/35 "2015-02-11T20:19:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, sure! But the thief has to go searching through parking lots for cars that are old enough that they’re drivable without the presence of that computer chip in the key. And since there are relatively few cars that old, we’ve got something like herd immunity here, because being a car thief just ain’t what it used to be. If you want to argue that an old car is more secure because it is more rare then I won’t dispute it (and also because no one wants to steal a clunker). If one is arguing that old-style locks are inherently safer than electronic locks then I will adamantly disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/36 "2015-02-11T21:51:53Z")
Old cars are emphatically not as secure as newer cars. The list of [most stolen cars in 2012](http://www.dmv.org/insurance/most-stolen-cars-and-other-vehicles.php) is topped by mid 90’s sedans because car security got rapidly better in the late 90s. 1996 Honda Accord 1998 Honda Civic 2006 Ford Pickup (full size) 1999 Chevrolet Pickup (full size) 1991 Toyota Camry 2000 Dodge Caravan 2004 Dodge Pickup (full size) 1994 Acura Integra 1997 Nissan Altima 1996 Nissan Maxima ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/37 "2015-02-11T22:26:26Z")
You folks aren’t even imagining the problems. Forget uncommanded braking - how about NOT activating the wig-wag at the rail crossing - let alone getting a really long chain of long-distance pods to arrive the same time as the train. Or maybe there are only two cars out on a lovely hilly, curvy road - “Hey Bert - you take the Toyoda and I’ll take the Chevy - let’s run 'em!”. And - there will be the equivalent of a “test tape” - a storage device which spoofs various problems (wheel falls off, kid runs into traffic). These will be created by the manufacturers as a QA tool. Having a hacker run one of those into your car while in the middle of one of these cross-country chains will be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/38 "2015-02-11T22:47:51Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > You folks aren’t even imagining the problems. > > Forget uncommanded braking - how about NOT activating the wig-wag at the rail crossing - let alone getting a really long chain of long-distance pods to arrive the same time as the train. > > Or maybe there are only two cars out on a lovely hilly, curvy road - “Hey Bert - you take the Toyoda and I’ll take the Chevy - let’s run 'em!”. > > And - there will be the equivalent of a “test tape” - a storage device which spoofs various problems (wheel falls off, kid runs into traffic). These will be created by the manufacturers as a QA tool. > Having a hacker run one of those into your car while in the middle of one of these cross-country chains will be interesting. Sure, but a hacker today could [turn all the traffic lights in a city green](http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/hacking-traffic-light-systems/) or [open up the floodgates of a dam and flood a town](http://www.cerias.purdue.edu/apps/reports_and_papers/view/4730) or a million other random malicious acts. Yet such attacks are vanishingly rare. Just because you can imagine a million more attack vectors doesn’t mean much given how many already exist. You need to also explain why someone would exploit this new vector but also doesn’t care about all of the existing ones. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/39 "2015-02-11T22:55:23Z")
Many new cars have drive by wire throttles. The accelerator is not directly connected to the throttle body, instead the throttle body is activated by an electrical signal from the computer. Who knows the extent of, or the mechanics of a hackers access to a car, but it seems that this one thing could really cause some problems if they found a back door to it. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329/40 "2015-02-11T23:08:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ditto. > > The 2000 Accord has 221,000 miles on it, and is still rolling along. If you want to hack into it, bring a hacksaw. Is this the newest version of “I don’t even own a TV”? Honestly. You guys are smug about the dumbest stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-hackers-cause-car-crashes-or-other-problems/712329.md?page=3)