# Will Israel destroy Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277 "2023-10-08T15:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/201 "2023-10-10T20:43:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > With my usual caveat of “I’m really not sure,” I’m wondering to what degree _vengeance_ is the strategic aim here. There’s a lot of talk about Hamas’s long-term aims–but are we sure that’s what it’s about? Is it possible that, having been so ineffective for so long, their goal is less the establishment of a two-state solution (or even the annihilation of Israel) than it is a general blood-for-blood desire? > > There’s an old folk song, “The Wind That Shakes the Barley,” about an Irish man whose sweetheart was killed by British soldiers. The song has some chilling stanzas near the end: > > > [@](#): > > > > I wept and kissed her pale, pale cheek, > > Then rushed o’er vale and far lea, > > My vengeance on the foe to wreak, > > While soft winds shook the barley! > > > > But blood for blood without remorse, > > I’ve ta’en at [Oulart Hollow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Oulart_Hill) > > And placed my true love’s clay-cold corpse > > Where I full soon will follow > > And I wonder whether there’s some of this impulse among Hamas fighters: a knowledge that their cause is doomed, but a willingness to die for nothing greater than vengeance. Not just vengeance, but vengeance in the name of God. Martyrdom is a centuries old religious tradition. The song verse that’s been going through _my_ head is the last stanza of a Christian hymn. _The peace of God, it is no peace,_ _But strife closed in the sod,_ _Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing–_ _The marvelous peace of God._ The rest of the song is just as chilling, it’s basically about how Jesus’s disciples had simple peaceful lives before they found him, which caused them to meet horrible ends, but that’s the price of being a believer and it was worth it. I’m getting this sinking feeling because I just can’t see a path through this situation that’s not horrific. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/202 "2023-10-10T20:46:56Z")
Of course 100% of Palestinians don’t support Hamas. But when has that ever been a criterion? Many Russians don’t support their war either, but that doesn’t stop people from calling for the bombing of Russia. Most of the Russian soldiers are now conscripts who don’t want to be there, but that doesn’t stop the endless stream of gloating and high fives whenever one dies horribly on video. Nations go to war, and their people suffer the consequences. Not all Germans supported Hitler, but that didn’t stop the allies from firebombing German cities. Gazans have seen this show before. And they supported Hamas in large numbers right up to the moment Israel retaliated strongly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/203 "2023-10-10T20:56:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I am suggesting that it’s not universal, and any discussion that conflates the Hamas government with the people as a whole is fatally inaccurate. I concur that it is not universal, but Hamas does have wide support. And that is enough. I mean, 100% of germans didnt support Hitler either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/204 "2023-10-10T21:01:25Z")
“Enough” for what? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/205 "2023-10-10T21:10:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Enough” for what? > [@Riemann](#): > > You think the people of Gaza are not able to make the causal connection between Hamas committing atrocities and their lives getting much shittier? The Palestinians- by and large, but not universally- support hamas, even tho they should know it’s the bad way to go. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/206 "2023-10-10T21:15:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But none of that changes the fact that the current organization **will** be burned to the ground. You are making a claim of certainty about something you cannot be certain of. Israel cannot know everything about how where all Hamas senior leadership is; I know that to be a fact, because it’s plainly evident that Israel was badly underprepared for this attack, and so there’s obviously a LOT Israel does not know about Hamas’s activities and whereabouts. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > along with two Ashley-Burke class guided missile cruisers. “Arleigh Burke” class, and they’re destroyers. Arleigh Burke was an admiral in World War II and Korea and beyond, who was usually a commander of destroyer groups. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/207 "2023-10-10T21:20:28Z")
I actually knew that. Ashley was a brain fart. The USS Cole was one of them, and they were fairly recently in the news (a few years ago) when one collided with another ship due in part to poor performance of the bridge crew. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/208 "2023-10-10T21:22:15Z")
I’d forgotten about that collision. It is odd how often great big ships run into each other. I mean, you’d assume they see it coming, but history is full of disasters involving big ol’ boats smashing into one another. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/209 "2023-10-11T00:25:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > > > Does it need to be more complex than that? > > We should all be wary of making category errors. There are many players in the middle east, and they all have agendas. The “it” was referring to why Hamas commits unspeakable and senseless acts of terrorism in a struggle where they can seemingly never actually achieve their goals. Is your point that national security officials should be overly cautious and be on the lookout for being baited by an apparently stupid move by their enemies - sure. As someone just looking on the sidelines it’s not that relevant for me to worry unless it’s about my personal safety, in which case I do have that philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/210 "2023-10-11T01:10:48Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Pretty much all possibilities suck horribly except the one that won’t happen. The residents of Gaza throw off Hamas and negotiate directly with Israel. Why should Palestinians expect that that possibility wouldn’t also suck horribly? After all, the Palestinian residents of the West Bank aren’t under the control of Hamas, and Israel appears to have zero interest in “negotiating” with them in any way. They’re subject to constant land encroachment, dispossession, harassment and violence from extremist Israeli settlers, and Israel doesn’t protect them. I have nothing to say in favor of Hamas, especially given their propensity for terroristic murder, but I think it’s absurd to suggest that Palestinians could realistically attain a non-“sucky” degree of rights and freedom if only they’d get rid of Hamas. The Israeli government has made it very clear that they have no interest in that potential future, and in fact have expansionist objectives that directly conflict with it. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/211 "2023-10-11T01:51:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m sure the U.S. military is already looking at it. I am also sure they learned their lesson from Afghanistan/Irak … and refrain from putting boots on the ground in a geography where you ultimately cannot win ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/212 "2023-10-11T01:52:43Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The “it” was referring to why Hamas commits unspeakable and senseless acts of terrorism in a struggle where they can seemingly never actually achieve their goals. Their goal is staying in power by making their base happy. > [@Kimstu](#): > > ? After all, the Palestinian residents of the West Bank aren’t under the control of Hamas, They support Hamas 42%. In the last election (2006) Hamas had control. Since then, Hamas and allies have been able to put off elections. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/213 "2023-10-11T01:55:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Why should Palestinians expect that that possibility wouldn’t also suck horribly? After all, the Palestinian residents of the West Bank aren’t under the control of Hamas, and Israel appears to have zero interest in “negotiating” with them in any way. They’re subject to constant land encroachment, dispossession, harassment and violence from extremist Israeli settlers, and Israel doesn’t protect them. A major challenge faced by Israelis (like me) who try to convince other Israelis to support the removal of the settlements is the fact that settlers were forcibly removed by the IDF from Gaza as part of the withdrawl; and the result was Hamas’ takeover. Now, obviously you can’t just go tit-for-tat they-said-we-said forever. Or rather, you _can_, but that just leads to eternal bloodshed. At some point, someone has to take the first step towards peace, and that will obviously need to be Israel. But that’s the reason that the idea is treated skeptically by the Israeli public. Like you asked - why should the Israelis trust that Palestinians will react to the removal of the settlements by becoming less hostile this time? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/214 "2023-10-11T02:06:36Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > I am also sure they learned their lesson from Afghanistan/Irak … and refrain from putting boots on the ground in a geography where you ultimately cannot win One of the classic blunders. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/215 "2023-10-11T02:10:20Z")
Not likely that there will be boots on the ground but AWACS cover, bombing runs into Lebanon from a carrier, or accidental entry into the conflict through having to defend against some attack… Put a carrier group or two into an active war zone, and you are taking risks of escalation, I have to say again that I am fully in favor of Israel doing what it has to do to maintain the safety of its people, and of America supporting that effort. I’m probably the most consistent supporter of Israel on this board, and have been since I showed up here 24 years ago. This isn’t about politics. I’m not ‘just asking questions’ as a way to criticise without criticising. Once war breaks out, it’s time for everyone to put the politics behind and figure out how to win, and more importantly how not to lose. One of the main ways to do that is to examine what could go wrong and prepare for it, rather than just staying in your happy place waving a flag and calling for victory. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/216 "2023-10-11T02:15:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m probably the most consistent supporter of Israel on this board, and have been since I showed up here 24 years ago. Impressive, considering that there are, you know, actual Israelis on this board and have been over the past 24 years. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/217 "2023-10-11T02:25:30Z")
Just out of curiosity, has it ever been proposed (or even discussed) that the settlers in the West Bank no longer have Israeli residence and are thus ineligible to vote in Israeli local elections? What Knesset District represents them? That would be one way to curtail their power and put a hurting on the hard-right’s standing. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/218 "2023-10-11T02:38:04Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > What Knesset District represents them? No districts. The whole shebang is elected by proportional representation at-large. That’s how come you have all those little fringe parties that mess up coalition-building. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/219 "2023-10-11T02:44:29Z")
Ignorance fought. Thank you for that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/220 "2023-10-11T03:55:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Like you asked - why should the Israelis trust that Palestinians will react to the removal of the settlements by becoming less hostile this time? Sure, I don’t mean to suggest that the tradeoffs in strategic advantage are simple or straightforward on either side. I was just pushing back against What\_Exit’s imaginary scenario where real progress for Palestinian rights would somehow realistically follow upon their renouncing Hamas (thus, by implication, making the lack of progress for Palestinian rights the Palestinians’ own fault for not renouncing Hamas). I’m just not persuaded that any course of action on the Palestinians’ part would realistically result in non-suckiness to the extent of the Israeli leadership’s taking any meaningful steps to recognize rights or sovereignty for Palestinians. Doesn’t matter if they got rid of Hamas, if they all became sworn pacifists, whatever. None of that would change the determination of Israeli expansionists—who, alas, seem to be the ones shaping the major policy decisions—to establish full Israeli sovereignty over all Palestinian territory, with only Israelis having any recognized rights there. (To be fair, I think it’s also undeniable that there are many militant Palestinian revanchists who would be equally determined to establish full Palestinian sovereignty over Israel/Palestine as a whole, if they could, no matter how conciliatory Israel was being. The chief difference is that Palestinian revanchists have effectively zero chance of implementing their desired program, while Israeli expansionists have been making steady progress with theirs.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=12)