# Will Israel destroy Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277 "2023-10-08T15:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/422 "2023-10-18T15:09:56Z")
How about this one… The First Geneva Convention states that there should be no “obstacle to the humanitarian activities” and that wounded and sick "shall be respected and protected in all circumstance.” Article 19 demands that medical units, i.e. hospitals and mobile medical facilities, may in **no circumstances** be attacked. (Bolding mine) > **[Medical neutrality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_neutrality?wprov=sfti1)** > > Medical neutrality refers to a principle of noninterference with medical services in times of armed conflict and civil unrest: physicians must be allowed to care for the sick and wounded, and soldiers must receive care regardless of their political affiliations; all parties must refrain from attacking and misusing medical facilities, transport, and personnel. Concepts comprising the principles of medical neutrality derive from international human rights law, medical ethics and humanitarian law. ... ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/423 "2023-10-18T15:20:21Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Article 19 demands that medical units, i.e. hospitals and mobile medical facilities, may in **no circumstances** be attacked. But then there’s this: [Article 21 - Discontinuance of protection of medical establishments and units](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-22?activeTab=undefined) > The protection to which fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after a due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/424 "2023-10-18T15:20:22Z")
So once this part is violated what are the rules? > - Misuse of medical facilities > - Breaches of medical ethics by medical personnel > - Using the hospital/medical facilities in order to attack, fire/ fire rockets e.j., to civilians from the medical facilities > - Using the medical facilities in order to house weapons or soldiers > - Using the medical facilities for purposes other than medical assistance and/or aid to the public Do we just collectively chide the offenders and tell them they violated Medical neutrality or does it make the Hospital no longer covered? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/425 "2023-10-18T15:21:42Z")
That was a fast answer, practically simul-posted. So the post above mine was effectively cherrypicked it appears. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/426 "2023-10-18T15:22:36Z")
After all the speculation about the explosion at the hospital, the US government has now released a formal announcement that Israel is not guilty. “There was no singular crater suggesting there was a bomb, but there was extensive fire damage and scattered debris that is consistent with an explosion starting from the ground level” > **[US currently assesses that Israel is 'not responsible' for Gaza hospital blast...](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html)** > > The US government currently believes that Israel “is not responsible” for the blast at a hospital in Gaza on Tuesday, according to the National Security Council, following President Joe Biden’s comments that a Palestinian militant group was behind... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/427 "2023-10-18T15:23:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > the US government has now released a formal announcement that Israel is not guilty Is it any surprise that the colonialist western powers would cover for each other? Anyone whose certainty embiggens is swallowing a pack of neoliberal fascist lies! /S ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/428 "2023-10-18T15:25:37Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > So the post above mine was effectively cherrypicked it appears. the real problem is, Article 19 itself is pretty poorly worded, and poorly thought out. It literally does say “Under no circumstances”, but then they turn around and start providing exceptions to that hard rule. Hell, even the second clause of Art. 19 itself causes problems: > The responsible authorities shall ensure that the said medical establishments and units are, as far as possible, situated in such a manner that attacks against military objectives cannot imperil their safety. Why yes, I literally am a professional nitpicker. Had I been in charge of editing this, I’d have certainly at least added an asterisk. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/429 "2023-10-18T16:01:44Z")
> **[Biden announces release of 2 American hostages: Full coverage of the...](https://news.yahoo.com/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-biden-announces-release-of-two-us-hostages-184618115.html)** > > Judith and Natalie Raanan of Evanston, Ill., were visiting family when they were taken during the Oct. 7 attacks. > Israel has agreed to let “life-saving” humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip, President Biden said on Wednesday during his trip to the war-torn nation. > > Biden also announced the [U.S. would provide $100 million](https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-plunging-middle-east-turmoil-040440910.html) in funding to help civilians in Gaza and the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/430 "2023-10-18T16:47:57Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > Your first article makes no determination _who_ bombed the safe route: What article are you reading? I wasn’t aware that Hamas was conducting airstrikes: > A convoy of vehicles carrying fleeing civilians in Gaza that was hit by a deadly airstrike was travelling on one of the two roads identified by the Israeli army as “safe routes” to the southern half of the strip, according to analysis. > > The Friday afternoon bombing in [Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza) City, which killed a reported 70 people, including children, occurred on Salah-al-Din Road, a main thoroughfare in the overcrowded territory, home to a trapped population of 2.3 million people. > > The Forensic Architecture investigative unit at the Palestinian human rights organisation Al-Haq used aerial photos and social media posts to geolocate the site of the strike, sharing its findings with the Guardian. The BBC’s Verify unit came to the same conclusion. > [@tofor](#): > > Two and four are simply saying that Israel is still bombing the south part of the region. I don’t see anything to suggest that Israel said they wouldn’t, simply that it’s safer there which as far as I can tell is still true. Well, gosh, I mean if the Israelis never said they weren’t going to keep bombing civilians after they had put them to flight to the south of the country, then everything is okay about it then. > [@tofor](#): > > Five and six are the same incident, in which Israel warned the people there before the strike: Again, what article are you reading? > The bombing occurred a few minutes after a warning was conveyed by the Israeli military to Gazan officials operating it. > > According to the Associated Press, the Egyptians administering the crossing warned the crews on the Palestinian side to evacuate immediately due to threats of airstrikes, spokesperson for the Hamas Ministry of Interior and National Security Iyad Al-Bazm said Tuesday. > > Earlier in the day, a senior IDF spokesman advised Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to flee to Egypt, but the military issued a clarification shortly afterward. I guess having a warning conveyed a couple of minutes ahead of the bombing of the crossing is sufficient notice after telling Gazan’s to flee for Egypt through the Rafah crossing - oh wait, I think the entire point that you are missing is that the Israelis have closed the Rafah crossing by bombing it, leaving no way in or out of the Gaza Strip for Palestinians to leave or humanitarian aid to go in. Regarding the bombing of the hospital - you many have noticed Israel has come under repeated condemnation for the fact that it has demanded the 22 hospitals in northern Gaza be evacuated. You may also notice a lack of accusations by Israel that the hospitals are being used to launch rockets from. You may also note that aside from the demand that they be evacuated being a violation of international law, the WHO described the evacuation as a death sentence for 2,000 patients in intensive care or on life support. Oh well, it should be a moot point shortly, as the hospitals run out of fuel to power generators since there is no electricity thanks to Israel. Now back to the actual bombing of the hospital which killed 500 civilians, and which nobody has made any accusations of rockets being fired from, call me skeptical of Israel’s rush to blame it on an errant rocket and Biden’s rush to back it up. > British officials in public and private on Wednesday have not yet gone as far as the US. One official said it’s “not conclusive, but the Israeli assertion is not unfounded.” > > “We’re not quite there yet,” another official said. “Not because we dispute what they’ve seen. We’re still at ‘Let’s look at all the facts.’” > > UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said Wednesday that British intelligence services were working “rapidly” to establish the facts behind the deadly blast. > > “We should not rush to judgments before we have all the facts on this awful situation,” Sunak told lawmakers in the UK parliament. I’m rather unconvinced that an errant katyusha has the fuel to kill 500 people. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/431 "2023-10-18T16:54:08Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Now back to the actual bombing of the hospital which killed 500 civilians, and which nobody has made any accusations of rockets being fired from, call me skeptical of Israel’s rush to blame it on an errant rocket and Biden’s rush to back it up. Independent geolocators confirm that 500 people did not die, probably closer to 30-50; and it was definitely a faield rocket. Maybe you need to cut back on the unironic consumption of Hamas propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/432 "2023-10-18T16:56:12Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’m rather unconvinced that an errant katyusha has the fuel to kill 500 people. Which is exactly why Hamas lied and balooned 30-50 dead into 500. It’s classic Big Lie propaganda, another innovation Hamas learned from the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/433 "2023-10-18T17:06:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Which is exactly why Hamas lied and balooned 30-50 dead into 500. I think you are now uncritically accepting numbers. The number you suggest appears to be taken from the Twitter account of one OSINT person - who admittedly I have a lot of respect for - who is not there on the ground collecting body parts. > He talks about that number for the area of the courtyard shown in the red rectangle, which is only a small portion of the courtyard. I would wait before taking claims of casualty numbers as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/434 "2023-10-18T17:09:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Independent geolocators confirm that 500 people did not die, probably closer to 30-50; and it was definitely a faield rocket. > > Maybe you need to cut back on the unironic consumption of Hamas propaganda. And maybe you could actually provide some sort of a cite rather than make accusations of consumption of Hamas propaganda. Because that would be, you know, more useful than unfounded accusations. On preview: thanks to @Walken_After_Midnight for the actual cite. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/435 "2023-10-18T17:26:28Z")
Where is the hospital, and which side of the hospital was struck? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/436 "2023-10-18T17:30:34Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I would wait before taking claims of casualty numbers as fact. I certainly agree. If it turns out that there was another encampment on another side of the courtyard that number could definitely increase. I think I said in another thread, the original lower end estimates off 200 seem credible if the courtyard was crowded enough, though at this time there’s no reason to believe this is the case. But of course, as more evidence emerges my opinion will adjust accordingly. In these cases more evidence is alwats better. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/437 "2023-10-18T17:32:19Z")
There are coordinates on the Wikipedia page: > **[al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion)** > > Military engagements > Attacks > General topics The projectile landed in the courtyard. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/438 "2023-10-18T17:35:28Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > The projectile landed in the courtyard. Which makes me ponder the original breathless announcements that “THEY BLEW UP A HOSPITAL!!!” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/439 "2023-10-22T22:15:29Z")
Am I off base to be wondering if Israel’s not yet moving ground troops in, and allowing aid trucks in, is a _possible_ sign that something other than a ground invasion (that could be open ended with no obvious exit strategy and potentially coupled with a multi-fronted conflict) is being considered? Any thoughts from our Israeli members? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/440 "2023-10-22T22:52:52Z")
That’s precisely what Israel did in 2014. Posture as if about to invade, let Hamas set up its defenses, bomb those to bits, and call it a day. But Hamas significantly upped the ante this time around. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/441 "2023-10-23T00:48:48Z")
It sounds like Biden’s been playing a tricky diplomatic game: > **[How the Biden administration tried to slow Israel’s invasion of Gaza](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/22/israel-gaza-invasion-biden/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNjk3OTQ3MjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNjk5MzMzMTk5LCJpYXQiOjE2OTc5NDcyMDAsImp0aSI6IjM2OTdlNzA4LTQ5MGYtNGY1OC1iOTk5LTRlZDljZGZjMTk3YyIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9uYXRpb25hbC1zZWN1cml0eS8yMDIzLzEwLzIyL2lzcmFlbC1nYXphLWludmFzaW9uLWJpZGVuLyJ9.nFtMCjLhXzWcG2bTLD49pbSU_wKyuvVRUqam1423CAA&itid=gfta)** > > In the days after the Hamas invasion, the White House deployed the president’s top diplomats and military advisers in a frantic, prolonged mission to stave of a worst-case scenario of a wider Middle East conflict. > [@](#): > > In meetings with Netanyahu and his cabinet, the president expressed his concerns and posed questions. > > What if there is more Hamas resistance to a ground attack than you anticipate, and your forces get bogged down? What about humanitarian aid? How will you protect civilians? What about the hundreds of Israelis and foreigners being held hostage? What if the West Bank becomes a war zone? If Hezbollah attacks from the north? If Iran gets directly involved? > > And then came the longer-term concerns, something the Israelis, in their immediate rage, seemed less interested in contemplating: If you succeed in destroying Hamas, what will you do with Gaza? And what will happen to your hopes — and ours — for broader Middle East peace? > > Biden reminded the Israelis of the “mistakes” the United States had made as it struck out in fury after the al-Qaeda attacks in September 2001, he told reporters on Air Force One as he traveled back to Washington on Wednesday night. > > “I cautioned the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage,” he said. Given the US’s position in this international mess, I’m pretty impressed with how Biden’s handling it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=23)