# Will Israel destroy Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277 "2023-10-08T15:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/482 "2023-12-03T22:05:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because I too demand a ceasefire (permanent being a word used to characterize the calls, but not actually used in the calls that you cited) . It seems to me (and I could be wrong), many of those calling for a “permanent ceasefire “ mean “a permanent ceasefire for Israel” A ceasefire for a disparate terrorist organization/organizations really has little meaning. A new terrorist group will just pop up to continue kidnapping children and murdering Jews. “We are not (original terrorist group). We are now the (new group name) and are not bound by any ceasefire. A ceasefire is very needed, but it’s unlikely to be respected by terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/483 "2023-12-03T22:06:53Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It seems to me (and I could be wrong), many of those calling for a “permanent ceasefire “ mean “a permanent ceasefire for Israel” …you would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/484 "2023-12-03T22:07:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … but he _hasn’t_ pushed for a cease fire. He has, true it was a temporary one, but a permanent ceasefire is basically Israel giving up any chance of rescuing hostages and stopping attacks. You do know Hamas attacked israel, dont you? Over 1000 Israeli civilians died. Babies had their heads chopped off in public, pregnant women were murdered after horrific things done. That isnt a 'cease fire"- that is just demanding Israel not defend itself. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It seems to me (and I could be wrong), many of those calling for a “permanent ceasefire “ mean “a permanent ceasefire for Israel” > > A ceasefire for a disparate terrorist organization/organizations really has little meaning. A new terrorist group will just pop up to continue kidnapping children and murdering Jews. “We are not (original terrorist group). We are now the (new group name) and are not bound by any ceasefire. > > A ceasefire is very needed, but it’s unlikely to be respected by terrorists. Correct. Look at my post #475- JERUSALEM, Nov 30 (Reuters) - \*wo Hamas gunmen killed three people at a Jerusalem bus stop during morning rush hour on Thursday, That was during a ceasefire. Hamas will not respect any ceasefire, they have already proven that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/485 "2023-12-03T22:13:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > wrong. Who exactly upholds a ceasefire agreement on the terrorist side? I understand that Hamas themselves are having trouble figuring out just who is still keeping hostages at the moment. A ceasefire is needed. It will have to be a one-way ceasefire, because that’s the reality of the situation. Just leaning into your mic and intoning “wrong” does not change reality. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/486 "2023-12-03T22:16:32Z")
I think there are a whole lot of people who are under the delusion that Hamas can be stopped by methods not involving violence; though they generally seem quite unclear as to what those methods are. I think there are also a whole lot of people who think that Hamas can be stopped by violent methods targeted solely at Hamas while incurring almost no civilian casualties. I think they’re probably wrong. I think there are also a whole lot of people who think that Hamas can be stopped by violent methods targeted soley at Hamas while incurring significant civilian casualties, but while incurring a whole lot fewer civilian casualties than are happening now and are likely to happen if things continue on this course. I don’t know whether they’re right, but they might be. There is no right thing for Israel to do; but I am getting very worried that they may not be doing the least wrong thing. There are also, of course, significant numbers of people who think that Israel as a nation shouldn’t exist, some of them only deluded as to what would happen to the Jews (and some of the non-Jews) now resident there if that happened and some of whom would be quite happy if all Jews on the planet were killed. The latter, and some of the former, support Hamas. But not everybody calling for a ceasefire does. That doesn’t make a ceasefire necessarily the least wrong thing to do. But saying that everyone who supports one is supporting Hamas doesn’t seem to me to be either true or useful. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/487 "2023-12-03T22:25:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He has, true it was a temporary one, …“humanitarian pauses” are _not_ ceasefires. That distinction is important. Because we’ve just had a “humanitarian pauses” and now that pause has been lifted we had at least 700 people killed yesterday in IDF bombardments. All the “humanitarian pause” did was give the IDF time to reset their strategy so they could now target the south. > [@DrDeth](#): > > but a permanent ceasefire is basically Israel giving up any chance of rescuing hostages How many hostages has Israel actually rescued? Hostages were released during the _pause_. If the pause had continued, they would have gotten more hostages released. Now that they have resumed hostilities, the chances of rescuing the remaining hostages has been reduced. > [@DrDeth](#): > > and stopping attacks. A ceasefire would _also_ stop the attacks. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You do know Hamas attacked israel, dont you? Omigosh? Really? I did not know that! Thank you for informing me of this absolutely critical fact that I already know and changes my thinking on this not-one-iota. > [@DrDeth](#): > > That isnt a 'cease fire"- that is just demanding Israel not defend itself. What we have seen over the last 58 days is not Israel simply defending themselves. We’ve seen a deliberate strategy of taking out hospitals and civilian infrastructure, driving people to the south which is now the frontline in the war. These are not defensive moves. These are not strategies that have targeted Hamas. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Who exactly upholds a ceasefire agreement on the terrorist side? Who upholds the ceasefire on Israel’s side? Because they have committed _decades_ of atrocities. Killed thousands of innocent civilians. Were detaining thousands of people without charge or trial _before_ October the 7th. Torture. Abuse. Apartheid. The reality of the situation is that a ceasefire means Israel goes back to doing all of the bad things they were doing prior to October the 7th. It’s just that they don’t _also_ get to bomb Gaza into oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/488 "2023-12-03T22:28:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think there are a whole lot of people who are under the delusion that Hamas can be stopped by methods not involving violence; though they generally seem quite unclear as to what those methods are. …it isn’t this. What they consider is happening in Gaza right now is _genocide_. They are watching as their people are trapped, being starved, and bombed. And they want it to stop. It isn’t anything more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/489 "2023-12-03T22:42:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A ceasefire would _also_ stop the attacks. Because you’re going to close your eyes, cross you fingers and wish really hard? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/490 "2023-12-03T22:43:25Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Because you’re going to close your eyes, cross you fingers and wish really hard? …what is it, do you think, the purpose of a ceasefire is? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/491 "2023-12-03T22:54:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hostages were released during the _pause_. If the pause had continued, they would have gotten more hostages released No evidence of that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A ceasefire would _also_ stop the attacks. No, only for Israel, as my cite earlier proved. Hamas does not pay any attention to a ceasefire. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > what is it, do you think, the purpose of a ceasefire is? For both sides to stop attacking. Not just one. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/492 "2023-12-03T22:57:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No evidence of that. …plenty of evidence of that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, only for Israel, as my cite earlier proved. Hamas does not pay any attention to a ceasefire. Which earlier cite? Because Hamas _has_ and _does_ pay attention to ceasefires. > [@DrDeth](#): > > For both sides to stop attacking. Not just one. So let’s call for a ceasefire then. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/493 "2023-12-03T23:00:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t anything more complicated than that. Except it is. I support a permanent ceasefire. Even though it would be a one sided one. And such will not happen under a false narrative that Israeli forces are committing genocide. Hamas is trying to use innocent civilians as shields. Getting at _them_ requires Israeli forces to kill many innocents which makes Israel “the bad guy.” Hamas doing that is evil. It is cynical. And it _works_. Israeli forces are not going to gain much doing that and the price to innocent civilians is too high. Wanting Israel to stop that action is not supporting Hamas. Honestly as a supporter of Israel I believe it should be stopped not only because of the harms done to innocents, but because continuing it is not in Israeli best interests. Hamas was contained for years. Their success at murder was a result of multiple failures resultant of an incompetent administration under Netanyahu. Clean house and Hamas will be contained again. Demonizing Muslim Americans for having their sympathies lie with the many innocents being killed as acceptable costs to getting at Hamas targets is harmful. We don’t need more hate crimes here against Muslims or Jews. Throwing around the word genocide is even more harmful. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/494 "2023-12-03T23:03:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There is no right thing for Israel to do; but I am getting very worried that they may not be doing the least wrong thing FWIW I endorse this statement. Israel has to choose between poor options. They right now are picking a poorest one of the choices available. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/495 "2023-12-03T23:08:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Which earlier cite? Because Hamas _has_ and _does_ pay attention to ceasefires. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/shooting-attack-jerusalem-wounds-least-6-ambulance-service-2023-11-30/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/shooting-attack-jerusalem-wounds-least-6-ambulance-service-2023-11-30/) # Two Hamas gunmen open fire at Jerusalem bus stop, killing three And here are more _Israel’s military said it was restarting combat operations because Hamas “violated the operational pause … and fired toward Israeli territory.” Netanyahu’s office added that Hamas "did not live up to its duty to release all the kidnapped women today, and launched rockets at the citizens of Israel."3 days ago_ [ ### Israel resumes airstrikes after it says Hamas violated truce - NPR ]([Israel-Hamas latest: Israel resumes combat operations, Gaza cease-fire collapses : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216333362/israel-hamas-ceasefire-combat-gaza-hostages#:~:text=Israel's%20military%20said%20it%20was,at%20the%20citizens%20of%20Israel.%22)) [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/israel-and-hamas-s-truce-ends-with-no-announcement-of-extension](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/israel-and-hamas-s-truce-ends-with-no-announcement-of-extension) > **[Why the Ceasefire Was Destined to Fail](https://time.com/6341993/israel-hamas-ceasefire-war/)** > > Israeli leaders view this war differently than previous conflicts, a shift that seems likely to yield a longer and deadlier war, officials say. _s a week-long truce between Israel and Hamas ended Friday, with Hamas firing a barrage of rockets into Israel and the Israeli military renewing combat operations in the Gaza Strip, one thing became abundantly clear: The war won’t be ending any time soon… On Thursday, Hamas [killed](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article/three-israelis-killed-in-jerusalem-attack-hamas-affiliated-assailants-shot-dead/0000018c-1f4a-da36-a1de-5f6fc5200000) four Israelis in a terrorist attack in Jerusalem and launched more rockets into Israel, which Israel said violated the ceasefire._ ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/496 "2023-12-03T23:10:04Z")
No True Hamas logic. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/497 "2023-12-03T23:15:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > I think there are a whole lot of people who are under the delusion that Hamas can be stopped by methods not involving violence; though they generally seem quite unclear as to what those methods are. > > …it isn’t this. > > What they consider is happening in Gaza right now is _genocide_. They are watching as their people are trapped, being starved, and bombed. And they want it to stop. > > It isn’t anything more complicated than that. If it’s not at least slightly more complicated than that, then they don’t care whether Israelis are tortured and murdered. If their own family are under the remains of a building in Gaza right now, then I may well give them a pass on that. If they’re safe and comfortable posting on a message board, not so much. But kindly note that I said clearly that not everybody calling for a ceasefire is supporting Hamas. In case I need to spell it out, I’ll do so: Not everybody calling for a ceasefire doesn’t give a shit about Jewish victims, either. > [@DSeid](#): > > Israel has to choose between poor options. They right now are picking a poorest one of the choices available. I don’t know if it’s the least bad choice; and as I said am worried that it isn’t. But I don’t think it’s the poorest of the available choices. Doing nothing is I think an even worse choice. I think the eventual body count of that would be even higher. For that matter, nuking Gaza would be a worse choice. So would conventionally bombing the entire place into bloody dust, which I still think they’re going to stop short of doing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/498 "2023-12-03T23:30:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who upholds the ceasefire on Israel’s side? The government of Israel, as elected in a recognized democratic election. This should not be surprising. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/499 "2023-12-03T23:32:49Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But kindly note that I said clearly that not everybody calling for a ceasefire is supporting Hamas. True. but too often that is becuase they didnt think it out. A ceasefire really means- Hamas can still murder and launch rockets, while israel’s hands are tied. That is why a permanent ceasefire benefits Hamas. Yes, if a ceasefire meant- no more violence in the Middle East, i’d sign on in a second. Sadly, that is not an option. Hamas etc will continue to murder despite any ceasefire- and they already have, even in the short term of the last oine. Just like my cite above that some Muslim Americans think they have another choice for president other than trump or Biden. _In reality- they don’t._ And supporting some Green party spoiler just means good news for trump. Which is very very bad news for muslim-Americans. So, in fantasy land there could be another choice, But not in reality America. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/500 "2023-12-03T23:49:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hostages were released during the _pause_. If the pause had continued, they would have gotten more hostages released This is _completely and utterly_ disconnected from reality. The pause ended _because Hamas refused to release any more prisoners_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/501 "2023-12-03T23:56:27Z")
Further, from Day 1 Israel said “we are open to a ceasefire in exchange for hostages”. Hamas of course did not agree, instead demanding that Israel agree to a ceasefire unilaterally and then maybe Hamas could think about negotiating. Military force is what brought Hamas back to the table. I’m sure the fact that Hamas came to the table shortly after their totally-not-a-HQ under Shifa and elsewhere came under direct threat from ground troops is a complete coincidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=26)