# Will Israel destroy Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277 "2023-10-08T15:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/522 "2023-12-04T03:23:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Not what I said. …feel free to elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/523 "2023-12-04T03:29:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > **If it’s not at least slightly more complicated than that** , then they don’t care whether Israelis are tortured and murdered. > > If their own family are under the remains of a building in Gaza right now, then I may well give them a pass on that. If they’re safe and comfortable posting on a message board, not so much. Bolded, since you apparently missed it the first time. ETA: Going to bed now. Might or might not come back into the thread tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/524 "2023-12-04T03:48:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > _None_ of this should be allowed to continue. These are not things that a “recognized democratic country” should be doing. Well then I guess the kidnapping and murder of Jewish civilians will continue then. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/525 "2023-12-04T03:59:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel are the “bad guy” because they have shut down all of the hospitals in the north. Because they had a strategy of depopulating the north to the south where “it was safe” but now the south isn’t safe any more. Israel are the “bad guys” because of the siege that has effectively cut off food, water, fuel and electricity to millions of people. Who invaded Israel? Hamas. Hamas was indeed hiding terrorists in hospitals and tunnels under them. Who chopped babies heads off- Hamas. Who murdered pregnant in horrible ways and celebrated it? Hamas? Who killed over 1000 Israeli civilians- Hamas. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is nothing that _required_ the IDF to kill over 6000 children so far in this campaign. The UN has only verified some 6600 palestinians killed in total. So, 6000 children is a Hamas propaganda figure, the US says about 1500, almost all boys, many of whom may well have been Hamas terrorists. And Hamas was killing babies with machetes, up close and personal on purpose. No doubt some childrens were _inadvertently_ killed by Israeli bombing, especially as Hamas uses them as human shields and recruits older boys to fight. > **[United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied...](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)** > > function checkmobile(){ > > let check = false; > (function(a){if(/(android|bb\\d+|meego).+mobile|avantgo|bada\\/|blackberry|blazer|compal|elaine|fennec|hiptop|iemobile|ip(hone|od)|iris|kindle|lge |maemo|midp|mmp|mobile.+firefox|netfront|opera... [Child Recruitment | Defense for Children Palestine](https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_recruitment#:~:text=DCIP%20has%20documented%20Palestinian%20armed,to%20act%20as%20a%20lookout). _DCIP has documented Palestinian armed groups recruiting and using Palestinian children during active hostilities, often during active hostilities with Israel._ > **[United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied...](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)** > > function checkmobile(){ > > let check = false; > (function(a){if(/(android|bb\\d+|meego).+mobile|avantgo|bada\\/|blackberry|blazer|compal|elaine|fennec|hiptop|iemobile|ip(hone|od)|iris|kindle|lge |maemo|midp|mmp|mobile.+firefox|netfront|opera... > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t being “thrown around.” Its being used by people like historian Raz Segal. > > [A Textbook Case of Genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) The Hamas charter openly calls for Genocide- _[Hamas Charter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#:~:text=The%20original%20Charter%20identifies%20Hamas,the%20face%20of%20the%20oppressors%22.)_ _The original Charter identifies Hamas as the [Muslim Brotherhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) in Palestine and declares its members to be [Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims) who “fear [God](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam) and raise the banner of [Jihad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad) in the face of the oppressors”. The charter states that “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an [Islamic state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_state) in Palestine, in place of [Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and the [Palestinian Territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories),[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-3) and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-coh-4)[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-5)… \* **Article 13** There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-avalon-1)… 1. Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;[[46]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-hoffman-46)_ _2. Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;[[46]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#cite_note-hoffman-46)_ _3. Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable_ And also says that negotiation is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/526 "2023-12-04T04:00:07Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well then I guess the kidnapping and murder of Jewish civilians will continue then. …from Amnesty International, 2008: > [@](#): > > Israeli lawyers and both Israeli and international human rights organizations, including > Amnesty International, have documented a number of cases in which the GSS or the Israeli police have subjected Palestinians from the OPT whom they believe have information about > future attacks to prolonged periods of interrogation accompanied by torture. These are > sometimes described to victims as “military interrogations” or “necessity interrogations”.8 > Methods of torture described by Palestinians who have been subjected to such interrogations > include prolonged beatings and sharp painful blows to the head or stomach and having > handcuffs tightened to the extent that the detainees have said that they fear losing their hands > or arms. In addition, according to information available to Amnesty International there are > three particularly painful forms of stress positions in use by the GSS; all positions are often > with tightened handcuffs or shackles and accompanied by blows. > **[mde150402008en.pdf](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde150402008en.pdf)** > > 748.81 KB From 2022: > [@](#): > > TORTURE AND OTHER ILL-TREATMENT > Torture and other ill-treatment during arrest and interrogation of Palestinians in Israel and the OPT is > widespread. For decades, Palestinian detainees, including children, have reported torture or other illtreatment by the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service and Israeli military forces during arrest, > transfer and interrogation. Prompt, thorough and impartial investigations by Israeli authorities into such allegations are extremely rare > > … > > Despite these official conclusions and ruling, human rights organizations have continued to report > widespread torture and other ill-treatment from the 2000s to the present day. The Public Committee Against > Torture in Israel publishes yearly situation reports.1426 Other Israeli organizations have documented violations > in general and in particular interrogation facilities.1427 Palestinian organizations have done similarly, covering > Israeli practices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.1428 > **[Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel system of domination and crime...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/)** > > Amnesty International has analysed Israel’s intent to create and maintain a system of oppression and domination over Palestinians and examined its key components: territorial fragmentation; segregation and control; dispossession of land and property;... I condemn the actions of Hamas. I condemn the kidnapping and murder of Jewish civilians. Do you condemn the administrative detention and torture of Palestinians by representatives of the state of Israel? Because I think we are on the same page here. I just want to make sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/527 "2023-12-04T04:02:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > do you know what “the end of hostilities” means? _Ceasefire_. No, it means- 'when Israel is destroyed" . ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/528 "2023-12-04T04:06:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > Well then I guess the kidnapping and murder of Jewish civilians will continue then. > > …from Amnesty International, 2008: Nice, you “All Lives Matter’d” all over that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/529 "2023-12-04T04:10:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Hamas charter openly calls for Genocide- …irrelevant to my point. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, it means- 'when Israel is destroyed" . I think if what they meant to say was “when Israel is destroyed”, they should have said that. But that _wasn’t_ what they said. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/530 "2023-12-04T04:16:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …irrelevant to my point. One side openly calls for genocide, yet that is irrelevant? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think if what they meant to say was “when Israel is destroyed”, they should have said that. But that _wasn’t_ what they said. Indeed they did, in a public statement. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/531 "2023-12-04T04:18:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One side openly calls for genocide, yet that is irrelevant? …to what you quoted of me? Yup. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed they did, in a public statement. Not in the public statement I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/532 "2023-12-04T06:40:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > condemn the actions of Hamas. I condemn the kidnapping and murder of Jewish civilians. > > Do you condemn the administrative detention and torture of Palestinians by representatives of the state of Israel? > > Because I think we are on the same page here. I just want to make sure. I certainly do condemn war crimes by all countries, governments and terrorists. What I don’t think will work is a unilateral ceasefire by one side, while there is no ability to have one on the other side. This is more typically called “surrender “. Which in Israel s case would mean total eradication and extermination of all Jews in the region. WHO would enforce a ceasefire on the Palestinian side? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/533 "2023-12-04T08:59:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I certainly do condemn war crimes by all countries, governments and terrorists. …Do you condemn the administrative detention and torture of Palestinians by representatives of the state of Israel? Do you agree that administrative detention is bad, and that everybody currently held in Israel without charge or “convicted” using secret evidence that the convicted never got the chance to see should be released? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > What I don’t think will work is a unilateral ceasefire by one side, while there is no ability to have one on the other side. You know that Israel shot and killed people trying to get to their homes in the north at the start of the pause, right? Why are you just worried about one side but not the other? It takes _two_ to tango. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is more typically called “surrender “. This is not typically called surrender. They didn’t call it surrender during the pause. They didn’t call it surrender every other time they’ve negotiated a ceasefire. It’s _never_ typically called surrender. Israel have killed over 14,800 people. They’ve displaced 1.7 million people from their homes. They taken out of action all of the hospitals in the north. They have complete air supremacy. Almost all of the civilian infrastructure is destroyed. Rubbish and waste services stopped today. > > > بلدية غزة - Municipality Of Gaza @munigaza Are you really claiming that if Israel stopped bombing today, that this would be surrender? When millions of Gazan would still literally be under siege? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Which in Israel s case would mean total eradication and extermination of all Jews in the region. You really think if Israel were to stop bombing today that would mean total eradication and extermination of all Jews in the region? Because the siege still won’t have been lifted. Famine, disease, covid. Simple basic healthcare. If the bombing stopped tomorrow, these things don’t magically suddenly get fixed. The borders won’t suddenly get opened. Gazans will still be condemned to just die. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/534 "2023-12-04T14:10:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s not gonna happen while Hamas is in power, though. It’s also not gonna happen while Netanyahu is in power. Not really taking a side in the argument, but I think this is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/535 "2023-12-04T16:06:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > I certainly do condemn war crimes by all countries, governments and terrorists. > > …Do you condemn the administrative detention and torture of Palestinians by representatives of the state of Israel? I think “all countries, governments and terrorists” covers that. I’m not sure why you’re confused. > Are you really claiming that if Israel stopped bombing today, that this would be surrender? When millions of Gazan would still literally be under siege? I believe I was referring to a “permanent ceasefire” Yes, the bombing of Gaza should stop today. No, there cannot be a permanent ceasefire while there is one faction that simply will not honor a ceasefire, and lacks the capacity to enforce a ceasefire. I hope this clarifies things for you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/536 "2023-12-04T20:19:05Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m not sure why you’re confused. …i’m _not_ confused. I just think it’s extremely telling how people _refuse_ to directly call out Israel’s atrocities. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I hope this clarifies things for you. > [@](#): > > Definitive ceasefires > A definitive (or permanent) ceasefire is usually the result of a successful political process, > in which the parties have reached an accord > on all aspects of the peace negotiations. It > is not necessarily preceded by a preliminary > ceasefire. > In addition to other issues, a definitive ceasefire addresses broader security arrangements. In most cases, the active phase of a > definitive ceasefire ends with the disarmament or demobilization of identified forces, > but the follow-on security arrangements may > remain in place for many years after an agreement has been signed. Definitive ceasefires > are intricately linked to the political, social and > economic dimensions of the broader peace > agreement. > **[Ceasefire-Guidance-2022-Chapter-1.pdf](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/Ceasefire-Guidance-2022-Chapter-1.pdf)** > > 1299.43 KB A permanent ceasefire is just a technical term to describe what happens _after_ a preliminary ceasefire. Its a negotiated agreement after a successful political process. It can be many things, but one of the things it certainly _isn’t_ is a surrender. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/537 "2023-12-04T20:55:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel have killed over 14,800 people. Again, the UN figures show a number less than half of that. > [@OldOlds](#): > > It’s also not gonna happen while Netanyahu is in power. Well, that is a good point. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/538 "2023-12-04T21:01:16Z")
A US president would never demand or pressure for an Israeli ceasefire because of the likelihood they’d have to face up to that demand the next time there’s a terrorist strike/atrocity involving the US. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/539 "2023-12-04T21:08:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, the UN figures show a number less than half of that. > [@UN](#): > > - According to the Government Media Office, as of 18:00 on 23 November, more than 14,800 people have been killed in Gaza, including about 6,000 children and 4,000 women. This office, which is under the de facto authorities in Gaza, has been reporting casualties since the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza stopped doing so on 11 November, following the collapse of services and communications at hospitals in the north. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - OCHA Flash Update #52 - Question...](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/hostilities-in-the-gaza-strip-and-israel-ocha-flash-update-52/)** > >     KEY POINTS The humanitarian pause, agreed upon by Israel and Hamas, was largely maintained on 27 November for the fourth consecutive day. It has enabled humanitarian actors, primarily the Egyptian and Palestinian Red Crescent Societies... …the UN don’t have the capacity to collate the numbers on their own. Just like everyone else, they rely on the numbers from the Gazan ministries, that have been [independently](https://theintercept.com/2023/10/31/gaza-death-palestine-health-ministry/) verified, and have in the past been found to be broadly accurate. Considering that hundreds, probably thousands are still trapped or dead under the rubble, and that this was the number from _over a week ago_, most experts think the numbers are an undercount. There were 700 deaths reported yesterday. So its 15-16,000 people _at least_ right now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/540 "2023-12-04T21:28:08Z")
> [@UN](#): > > According to the Government Media Office, The Government Media Office is a propaganda tool of Hamas. It does not reflect actual UN figures. I cited above the UN cite. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/541 "2023-12-04T21:33:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Government Media Office is a propaganda tool of Hamas. …and the numbers have been independently verified, have been broadly accurate in the past, and is being used by everyone, including the US State Department. > [@DrDeth](#): > > . It does not reflect actual UN figures. I cited above the UN cite. This thread has 456 posts in it. If you want to refute my number, it would be helpful to include your cite again because finding it in this thread is not an easy process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=28)