# Will Israel destroy Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277 "2023-10-08T15:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/121 "2023-10-09T19:33:09Z")
I think the big question is how much Israel can target the leadership of Hamas as opposed to its agents. If Israel can only eliminate agents, then the leadership will replace those agents with new ones and Hamas will continue to exist. If Israel can eliminate the leadership, then Hamas will cease to exist as an organization. As several people, including myself, have noted the elimination of Hamas won’t be a permanent resolution. Eventually a different organization will rise up and replace Hamas. But that process will give Israel a period of peace. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/122 "2023-10-09T19:35:17Z")
Good point. I think you are right. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/123 "2023-10-09T19:51:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Then what? What comes next? How does Israel resolve this? Next is a ground invasion of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/124 "2023-10-09T19:54:29Z")
I think a big piece of it is how Israel’s government thinks about responsibility. One approach is the “[All Palestinian civilian deaths are Hamas’s fault](https://wapo.st/46mRgKm)”. I think this is an abdication of moral responsibility–and, what’s more, totally nonpersuasive to anyone already 100% on Israel’s government’s side. As terrible as Hamas’s approach of hiding behind civilians is (and it’s fucking awful), Hamas’s use of a horrific strategy doesn’t absolve Israel of moral responsibility for foreseeable deaths of Palestinian civilians. A different approach is the “We mourn every civilian death, and we strive to do better, and we’ll help Palestinians recover from the horrors of this war.” As I understand it, there are plenty of Israelis who take this approach (although it’s really goddamned hard right now–just as, after 9/11, I spoke with Americans who wanted to turn the entire Middle East into glass). It’ll mean continuing with measures to minimize civilian deaths, but also instituting new measures. It’ll absolutely mean not putting Gaza under a starvation-inducing siege, as has (I believe) been suggested. It’ll mean major nation-building, and it’ll mean serious negotiating with those who may stridently disagree with the government but who, at a bare minimum, acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. None of that means not killing Hamas. The terrorists must be eliminated, even as every measure is taken to not inspire a new generation of terrorists. I am unconvinced Netanyahu’s government has any interest in the second path, beyond the barest lip service. I do believe that others in Israel are interested in that path. (FWIW, I’ve also seen some truly repellent think-pieces from folks who suggest that Hamas’s actions are the inevitable result of years of Israel repression, blaming all Israeli civilian deaths on the Israeli government. This abdication of Hamas’s responsibility is grotesque). Edit: I am far from certain of the stuff I said above. It’s my best attempt at making sense of a terrible situation, but obviously I’m nowhere near an expert, and I’m open to having my mind changed. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/125 "2023-10-09T19:56:56Z")
What worries me is this was not an impromptu attack. This was planned (as noted by thousands of rockets being fired while all this happened). I’m not seeing the upside for Hamas in this. So, why would they do such an audacious attack that will only see them smashed? That’s really stupid and makes me worried because I don’t think they are actually stupid. Maybe I am wrong…I really hope I am. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/126 "2023-10-09T20:00:11Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s also based on the thoroughly absurd notion that Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have any interest in becoming citizens of Israel. Right. They want to destroy Israel. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Is “Hamas” the bad guys here? I see the US classifies them as a terrorist group, as does the UK. > > Does Hamas reflect Palestine or is Palestine a totally separate entity who are innocent in this? Or is it somewhere between those options? > > Did Israel instigate this attack or is this more of an ongoing set of grievances like what led to 9/11 in the US? Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are bad guys. Palestine is not Hamas, altho Hamas does have a part in the leadership. I have talked about the unending cycle of Terrorist rocket attack/Israel retaliation/ Terrorist retaliation for the retaliation/ and so on Hard to pin blame in that cycle. But that’s not what is going on here. Imagine a mexican drug cartel going into Texas, killing about 1000 Americans, wounding another couple thousand, and adding rape, looting and kidnapping. America would go apeshit, and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/127 "2023-10-09T20:01:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’ll mean major nation-building, and it’ll mean serious negotiating with those who may stridently disagree with the government but who, at a bare minimum, acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. AIUI, this was the plan when Israel pulled out of Gaza, but it fell apart when Hamas took power. If Hamas is wiped out – and I do mean “if,” since doing so without wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians will be exceedingly difficult – why would the new effort fare any better than the previous one? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m not seeing the upside for Hamas in this. So, why would they do such an audacious attack that will only see them smashed? Al Qaeda lured us into a two-decade war with 9/11. We spent trillions, and the Taliban still runs Afghanistan. Who won? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/128 "2023-10-09T20:03:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > AIUI, this was the plan when Israel pulled out of Gaza, but it fell apart when Hamas took power. If Hamas is wiped out – and I do mean “if,” since doing so without wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians will be exceedingly difficult – why would the new effort fare any better than the previous one? AIUI (this acronym should be understood to precede all my posts), Israel made the decision to accept Hamas’s power-grab, rather than say Oh Fuck No, based on some belief that Oh Fuck No would have created more problems than it would solve. In retrospect, that might have been the wrong decision, and Israel might say, “Palestinians, choose your own leadership, but if you choose leadership that won’t explicitly recognize our right to exist, you’re literally choosing for your government to be at war with our government. Like, ‘we will bomb your government’ at war. So maybe there’s a different leadership you want to choose?” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/129 "2023-10-09T20:05:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Then what? What comes next? How does Israel resolve this? Twitter thread with some possibilities in detail if you have an account: > ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/130 "2023-10-09T20:08:27Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Al Qaeda lured us into a two-decade war with 9/11. We spent trillions, and the Taliban still runs Afghanistan. Who won? Gaza is a whole lot smaller and more isolated. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/131 "2023-10-09T20:11:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Palestinians have been getting billions of dollars in annual aid from various parts of the world, and it seems to wind up being used to buy weapons when it isn’t stolen by corrupt leaders. There is little industry and little infrastructure for it, and their farms are low productivity. And after this conflict, we can assume that what little industry they had will be gone. > > In the meantime, a lot of people in the region are willing to shell out lots of momey to the people who are willing to keep fighting Israel. Well, [they won’t be getting](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-gaza-attack-10-09-23/h_c0bf0b484143fd3440c0dff83b488904) a substantial amount of money any more, at least for a while: > The European Union’s Commission is suspending all Palestinian funding until further review following the Hamas attack on Israel, an official said Monday. > > … > > As the biggest donor for the Palestinians, the European Commission is putting its full development portfolio under review, which is worth a about 691 million euros ($728 million) he said. This included: > > ``` > All payments are immediately suspended. > All projects are put under review. > All new budget proposals, including for 2023, are postponed until further notice. > Comprehensive assessment of the whole portfolio is being conducted. > > ``` One has to wonder just how much previous support for the Palestinians has been eradicated, or a least heavily damaged, bu their horrifying actions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/132 "2023-10-09T20:12:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > AIUI (this acronym should be understood to precede all my posts), Israel made the decision to accept Hamas’s power-grab, rather than say Oh Fuck No, based on some belief that Oh Fuck No would have created more problems than it would solve. This, as well as during numerous past conflicts between 07 and now deciding not to commit to rooting out and replacing Hamas. There was perhaps a sense of complacency that they couldn’t do anything worse that shoot some skeet rockets for Iron Dome to practice on. So rather than commit to a costly invasion, Israel just blew up a couple Hamas outposts whenever Hamas started shooting rockets. The hope was that Hamas would eventually mellow out and come to the negotiating table. Clearly, that was a huge mistake. By the by, guess who was in Israel’s driver’s seat for almost all the years that Hamas festered and radicalized Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/133 "2023-10-09T20:13:30Z")
I think their main goal is to get all their members held in Israeli prisons released by trading them for hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/134 "2023-10-09T20:14:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What worries me is this was not an impromptu attack. This was planned (as noted by thousands of rockets being fired while all this happened). > > I’m not seeing the upside for Hamas in this. So, why would they do such an audacious attack that will only see them smashed? > > That’s really stupid and makes me worried because I don’t think they are actually stupid. Maybe I am wrong…I really hope I am. This. When an enemy does something that looks completely counterproductive, the right reponse is not to go, “Ha! Stupid enemy,” but to ask, “What am I missing?” Hezbollah appears to be gearing up to go into Israel. Iran may have its own plans for more michief. And of course, all of this diverts attention, money and weaponry away from Ukraine. The Wall Street Journal says that this attack was supported, planned, and approved by Iran. They also aren’t stupid. A big problem with war is that it often triggers opportunistic wars elsewhere. That’s the reason behind the U.S. “Two front” strategy. I worry that we’ve just seen another front open on a larger, global war against the west. Coups have also been going on in Africa almost unnoticed. Bringing this around to what Israel does about this, I suspect what they will do is pacify Gaza to the extent it can be, then turn their attention to the people who fund and arm those terrorists. Primarily Iran. Take away the money and the supply of arms, and Hamas is toast. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/135 "2023-10-09T20:15:14Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think their main goal is to get all their members held in Israeli prisons released by trading them for hostages. And that is why you should never deal with terrorists. They have learned all they have to do is kidnap people to get their way, so they kidnap. Instead- rescue the victims if you can, otherwise, break the cycle. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/136 "2023-10-09T20:16:22Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think their main goal is to get all their members held in Israeli prisons released by trading them for hostages. The ones they haven’t already murdered, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/137 "2023-10-09T20:17:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Israel might say, “Palestinians, choose your own leadership, but if you choose leadership that won’t explicitly recognize our right to exist, you’re literally choosing for your government to be at war with our government. Like, ‘we will bomb your government’ at war. So maybe there’s a different leadership you want to choose?” Which would seem like a smart course of action – but not necessarily compatible with nation-building. Palestinians might not feel like they have much of a nation if their neighbor is telling them how to vote. (Not meaning to criticize Israel here … it’s just that I can’t imagine a future course here that isn’t bleak.) > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > Al Qaeda lured us into a two-decade war with 9/11. We spent trillions, and the Taliban still runs Afghanistan. Who won? > > Gaza is a whole lot smaller and more isolated. I’m not saying Hamas will successfully replicate Al Qaeda’s results – just that they have that model to to go by. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/138 "2023-10-09T20:21:07Z")
First off, that quote is from an “official” who had no authority to make such statements, and the EU has disavowed it. (Which is not to say that it won’t be accurate in a day or two, but as of now the EU has taken no action in response to the invasion) Secondly, my great fear is that Israel’s response is going to be so disproportionate they will actually manage to lose the moral high ground in a fight against people who kidnap dementia patients in wheelchairs. No doubt they now have the world’s sympathy to a greater extent than they have in decades, and showing a bit of restraint here might dramatically shift world public opinion about the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/139 "2023-10-09T20:28:54Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Secondly, my great fear is that Israel’s response is going to be so disproportionate they will actually manage to lose the moral high ground in a fight against people who kidnap dementia patients in wheelchairs. My great fear is that it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/140 "2023-10-09T20:30:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And that is why you should never deal with terrorists. They have learned all they have to do is kidnap people to get their way, so they kidnap. Instead- rescue the victims if you can, otherwise, break the cycle. It is going to be an extremely difficult decision for Israel. Remember, not too long ago they traded a thousand terrorists for ONE Israeli soldier. Rescuing any significant number of the hostages is likely going to be impossible, as they have presumably been dispersed throughout Gaza, and would certainly be killed as soon as Israeli forces were seen in their vicinity. I don’t see any practical solution other than for Israel to sacrifice the hostages and proceed as though they weren’t there, but that will go against deeply held national values. But the alternative of agreeing to a ceasefire, doing the prisoner swap and allowing Hamas to come out of this looking stronger is equally unthinkable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277.md?page=8)