Here was another-
Moderating:
This has moved into attacking the Poster. Please desist.
Well, it should be acknowledged that Israel has killed a lot of Palestinian civilians.
According to United Nations figures, between the beginning of 2008 and September 2023, at least 3,803 Palestinian civilians were killed. (In addition, 1,022 “Armed group” Palestinians and 1,582 Palestinians of “Disputed” status were killed, making a total of 6,407 Palestinian fatalities).
Over the same time period, 177 Israeli civilians were killed. (In addition, 131 “Israeli forces” were killed, making a total of 308 Israeli fatalities).
Here is a breakdown of the Palestinian civilian fatality contexts:
Access prevention: 149
Demonstrations: 376
Major hostilities: 1,795
Search and arrest operations: 217
Settler-related incidents: 254
Other: 1,012
What gets me is that many, perhaps most, people seem to hold either a pro-Israeli or a pro-Palestinian viewpoint. It is this binary thinking that perpetuates the cycle of violence generation after generation, as the only solution that will provide a lasting peace is a political one, and that will involve dialogue and compromise from both sides. Since the pro-Israel stance is more dominant on this board I have tried to provide some balance through explanation of the Palestinian viewpoint. If this situation were reversed and the Palestinian viewpoint dominant, I would instead explain the Israeli viewpoint, such as the right of their nation to exist and their people to live in peace.
Obviously, the murder of civilians is never acceptable and yesterday saw the perpetration of some heinous acts of evil. I would just urge people to recognise the many Palestinian civilians that have also died in this conflict, as they don’t seem to get much attention.
And how many of these people had their throats slit, or their naked bodies paraded before cheering crowds, or were slaughtered while cowering in a bomb shelter by armed assailants?
The false equivalence between the actions of Israel, which admittedly have not always been in the best interest of a long-term peaceful solution to this problem, and the actions of Hamas, which have always reveled in their atrocities, is absolutely disgusting.
The deaths of Palestinian civilians are tragic, and feed directly into Hamas’ recruiting pipeline, as I’ve said numerous times in this thread and others. But what it isn’t, and what it never has been, is a willful and bloodthirsty slaughter, like Hamas has demonstrated again and again.
I described what Hamas militants did yesterday as “heinous acts of evil”. You described Israel killing thousands of Palestinian civilians as actions “which admittedly have not always been in the best interest of a long-term peaceful solution to this problem”.
Remind me when the IDF forced children to watch while they murdered their parents and then we can talk moral equivalency.
That’s exactly what I was criticizing in saying that many people on the left are “black-and-white” anti-Israel.
The total number of casualties on each side tells us little. That’s largely a function of who is better equipped, not who is perpetuating the violence. And many Palestinian civilian deaths are a result of Palestinian terrorists deliberately shielding themselves behind civilians and making it impossible for Israel to defend itself from terrorism without collateral harm. Palestinian civilian deaths are a deliberate strategy of Palestinian terrorists.
In last year’s US operations against ISIS, the number of ISIS fatalities was 700, US fatalities zero. Does that make ISIS the persecuted victims of the US?
You’re the ones making out that I am saying there is a moral equivalency. I am not. What the Hamas militants are doing is ISIS-level depravity.
Right. Because when Hamas is shooting rockets out of hospitals and apartment buildings, you have to make a difficult choice that could end with civilians being killed. Which not only sucks for those civilians, it also helps Hamas recruit to ensure that next year they can do the same thing.
On the other hand, when you slaughter people in cold blood, that’s something else entirely. Equivocation between the two is sickening.
This. You can’t make claims that Israel is violating the Geneva Conventions by firing at a hospital when you’ve purposely set up your rocket launchers atop said hospital.
Look, we know the never ending cycle of Hamas etc terror attack on Israel, followed by Israeli retaliation, followed by retaliation for the retaliation, followed by … Is not healthy and makes out both to be bad guys. I can neither condone nor condemn what Israel is doing there.
But that’s not really what we are talking about, not digging up old grudges and retaliation for those.
We are talking about an out and out Hamas attack on Israeli civilians, killing maiming raping looting.,
Maybe give this article a read one day:
Given the current circumstances, it’s probably not a good time to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian issue as a whole, so I’ll drop it.
There’s a Wikipedia page detailing all the war crimes the Allies committed against Germany, too. Doesn’t mean the two sides are equivalent.
How about instead of dropping snarky half-hearted bOtH sIdEs in every thread about this issue you go ahead and let me know what it is that Israel has done that even remotely approaches what Hamas does on a daily basis?
Right. those grievances go back to the Great War, and likely further.
let’s concentrate on current affairs.
A post was merged into an existing topic: Why not encourage people to move from Gaza to the West Bank
I have to imagine that the real question is whether Israel will “destroy” those who are providing the funding and equipment to the Gazans (whoever they might be affiliated with) in order for them to be able to attack Israel. And the answer to that is almost certainly no, because they are much too large and widspread for Israel to fully disarm. Even if Israel can get all the nation-state level support discontinued, there is undoubtedly a lot of private support that is run through various “charities”. And so the cycle will continue until Israeli is destroyed or the Palestinians cease to exist, neither of which is a reasonable outcome, but that’s what it’s going to take, since the Palestinians will continue their fight until the end and there’s basically nothing anyone else can do about it.
Which returns to the OP and the skepticism some of us have that such is possible, at least not without … extremely poor specificity. And destroying Hamas at the cost of killing hundreds to thousands of non-Hamas is not only … ethically problematic … it is counterproductive over any medium term as it creates the circumstance in which another revenge focused group emerges.
Is there a way to destroy Hamas without that? If not are there then ways to effectively diminish Hamas with good specificity?
It will require Israel to re-occupy Gaza, which will lead to a bunch of casualties and a regular trickle of casualties afterwards.
There isn’t really another alternative.
It’s not clear to me whether this is true or not. At first glance it seems no it can’t be done, it’s seems like a classic irregular warfare situation (as seen in Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.) Sure a large army fighting an irregular force can can kill a lot of fighters including decent number of senior leaders (plus of course a lot of civilians) but that does bot mean they defeat the irregular force and destroy its will or ability to keep fighting (particularly anywhere the large army doesn’t currently have troops)
The difference here is the Gaza Strip is not Afghanistan or Vietnam. It’s a tiny 10x50km pocket of land, surrounded on three sides by Israel (or Israeli controlled sea) and the Israeli army is large. They would be quite capable (at a significant cost on both sides, but most of all the civilian population of Gaza) of making sure there isn’t anywhere in the Gaza Strip that does not have Israeli troops. In those circumstances I’m not sure wiping out Hamas would be impossible (not that it would make anyone more secure)
Given the population density of Gaza I suspect “a bunch” does not quite capture the level of death and destruction of non-Hamas Palestinians and Israeli soldiers that such an action would result in. And that will result in another generation of revenge focused individuals, even if Hamas as an organization is destroyed.
Not a great outcome.
I’m hoping that minds greater than mine can offer alternatives.