# Will it take a gay version Columbine to open the public's eyes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2003, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887 "2003-06-19T08:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ConnieS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ConnieS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ConnieS)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/21 "2003-06-19T20:57:40Z")
Sorry about the doublepost. Server problems. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/22 "2003-06-19T22:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Windwalker \* > \*\*After reading it got me wondering what it would take to stop the subtle and not-so-subtle harassment and abuse of gay people in this country. \*\* Sigh. It is **NOT** “harrassment & abuse of _gay_ people in this country”- it is harrassment & abuse of \*any humans who stand out as being different \* from the other humans. “Niggers, spics, wops, kikes, gentiles, sand-niggers, towelheads, mackerelsmackers, slopes, yellow-peril, chinks, bandy-legged-bog-trotters, no-irish-need-apply, buddaheads, rednecks, trailer-trash, damyankees, frogs, wetbacks, beaners, american-imperialist-dogs, fundies, redskins, highbrows, lowbrows, nerds, geeks, foureyes, brainiacs, retards…” and oh yes- “faggots”. Those who are not much higher than the monkey-like animals we are descended from must needs duplicate such monkey-like behavior as picking on & driving out the “different”. Those who are clearly “gay” in a hetero world will be harrassed by the not-gay “monkeys”. Those who are a different colour, or faith, or country-of-origin; or any other obvious difference will be picked on & harrassed by the “normal” monkeys. Of course, when the “different” become the majority, they reciprocate… because too many of any group of “humans” are really “monkeys”. In a world where most of the population is gay- some of them would pick on the heteros- in fact, this already happens in some areas. When will it stop? As long as too many “humans” are really “monkeys”- never. Education, and stopping the teaching of hate will help a lot. Those of us who are educated will understand these monkey impulses, and stop them before we act or say anything. First thing to do- is stop teaching hate. If this requires the use of armed force to stop such things as “muslim schools” where they are taught to hate America & Isreal (or Christians & Jews)- then let’s do it. If this also means we have to send some US Marshals into places where kids are taught KKK hatred, or to hate gays- then let’s do that too… even if it means arresting the heads of the So Baptist Church. No one should be able to teach hatred- not even under the 1st Admendment. ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/23 "2003-06-19T22:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pierre72 \* > \*\*So maybe it’ll take a gay Martin Luther King figure to change people’s minds. Sure, (s)he’d be villified, reviled, maybe even assassinated, but Hey! You’d get a street named after you! (And it’d be the most FABULOUS street in America!) > \*\* Banyard Rustin? He was the other guy behind the Civil Rights Movement, but he was basically kicked out because he was gay. Lot more moral in his sex life than MLKJr though. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/24 "2003-06-20T00:12:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Windwalker \* > \*\* > That’s why I think a gay version of columbine (where the gay kids were really being seriously abused) may be necessary to open eyes about the plight of some gay people. \*\* Matthew Shepherd was splashed all over the national headlines. If a young man being driven to a secluded area and beaten to death doesn’t raise awareness I don’t know what would. I really don’t see a massacre raising the awareness or garnering sympathy for anybody. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And I bet school administrators and teachers will NOT tolerate the known gay bashing that goes on in their halls any longer, if such an event were to occur. \*\* Do most teachers and administrators tolerate it now? I mean any more or less then they tolerate bullying in general. Marc ---
**Author:** ![TeaRoses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@TeaRoses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaRoses)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/25 "2003-06-20T02:24:58Z")
I seem to remember a case here in California where a gay high school student killed another (not gay) student who “outed” him. (sorry, I have no cite and I can’t remember a name to look up). It generated sympathy within the gay community but at the time I had the impression that it was doing no good for the perception of the community in general. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/26 "2003-06-20T02:31:33Z")
What about Harvey Milk? It seems he was doing some good before he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/27 "2003-06-20T05:04:43Z")
Quite often we see on the news how an employee (for whatever reason) goes on a mindless shooting spree against his fellow workers. Sometimes, it is because this person was treated poorly by his fellow workers, management, etc. When has this ever caused anyone to say “Gee whiz, it’s time we treated our fellow employees better and pay attention to their concerns so we can prevent such violent outbursts from ever ocurring again”. So, I don’t think a mindless shooting spree (for whatever reason) is ever going to cause a tremendous shift in the mindset of people. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/28 "2003-06-20T05:22:01Z")
I’m pretty sure a gay version of Columbine would be a Broadway musical.😉 Ahem. Sorry. Tough Crowd. Seriously, that’s a really bad idea. As a general rule I have _less_ sympathy for those who resort to mostly senseless violence. Killing in actual self defense is one thing. Killing to make a point is a good starting point for a working definition of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/29 "2003-06-20T06:37:54Z")
Another agreement with **Broomstick**. As a matter of fact, a negative backlash would make it even more similar to Columbine. With all the superficial ‘zero-tolerance’ rules that were created as a knee-jerk reaction to Columbine, far more “outsiders” ended up being targeted by administrators for wearing trenchcoats, writing angry poetry, or otherwise not fitting in, than “insiders” for doing all the actual tormenting. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/30 "2003-06-20T06:45:49Z")
(sorry, meant to add this as well) Administrators and parent groups will say things like ‘tolerance’ and ‘mutual respect’, but when it comes to doing the actual work of running the school, it’s far easier to crack down on the one who’s not fitting in than the fifty who are making his or her life hell. Similarly, I think we’d hear a lot of people talking about fighting homophobia, but the actual policy would be ostracizing gay students under the guise of “keeping our children safe from potential time bombs.” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/31 "2003-06-20T10:53:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Remember Andrew Cunanan, that loony-bird spree killer who included fashion designer Gianni Versace among his victims? Remember the barely-concealed glee with which the news media recounted his [flamboyantly gay lifestyle](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/17/cunanan/)? It was bad enough that he was a murderer, but his crimes seemed to take a back seat to sensationalized depictions of his sexual preference. \*\* Sex sells. Maybe we could consider this to be some progress as well? When Leopold and Loeb were on trial the issue of homosexuality wasn’t brought up in the media and the courts whispered that part of the trial for the sake of decency. Now the salacious sex life of a murderer is just as open for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals. Yay! Marc ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/32 "2003-06-20T14:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Windwalker \* > \*\*I don’t really want this to happen. I just wonder if this is what it will take to make people care (even if for the wrong reasons). \*\* If that is what you think, then you are monumentally out of touch with humanity. What happened after Columbine? Was bullying stopped? NO! Instead, black trenchcoats were outlawed in the school and in other school districts, students who wrote “bad” poetry were sent to jail for it. In other words, the power of the state was used to oppress the minority group further in order to “increase safety”. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/33 "2003-06-20T18:39:00Z")
The gay rights movement would get a great boost, IMHO, when the general populace empathized with their plight. “Uncle Tom”, though melodramatic, put a face on the slaves for millions of readers. Gandhi, through peaceful resistance, gained the sympathy of the world when the British used cruel measures. And how many Americans recoiled at the sight of black, peaceful, civil rights protesters who had dogs set on them by the police? Gays don’t need another Columbine. Gays need the sympathy and understanding of the people. Matthew Shepard as a martyr does a lot more for gay rights than Matthew Shepard gone postal. Grim ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/34 "2003-06-20T20:30:08Z")
Barney Frank has done more than people realize, too. There he is, in Washington, being boring. Just being boring. THAT is the “lifestyle” that people get so up in arms about? Heckfahr, Martha, I guess they ain’t so bad if they can be as boring as he is. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/35 "2003-06-20T20:56:13Z")
“Boring” gay couples seem to raise property values. My friends in SoCal “partners” spend a lot of dough on their places. Atlanta residents, hasn’t it been true there? That’s what I like to see. I’ve read several stories about the phenomenon in the paper. Family property values. : - ) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/36 "2003-06-20T21:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Barney Frank has done more than people realize, too. There he is, in Washington, being boring. Just being boring. THAT is the “lifestyle” that people get so up in arms about? Heckfahr, Martha, I guess they ain’t so bad if they can be as boring as he is. \*\* Dunno about that, with that whole gay escort service thing and all. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/37 "2003-06-20T23:37:38Z")
Oh, yeah, **Brutus** - no politician has ever been involved with prostitutes before. :rolleyes: A tad more on topic, I think we have far more heroes and martyrs than villains, even if it’s “in self defense” (although the Colombine tragedy is more than a little extreme in that regard). Some have already been mentioned, but they’re worth repeating: [ul][li]Harvey Milk[/li][li]Matthew Shepard[/li][li]Mark Mingham[/li][li]The Stonewall Rioters[/li][li]Billy Jack Gaither[/li][li]Barry Winchell[/li][li]Bradon Teena[/ul][/li] Plus you can check out [**matt\_mcl** ’s website](http://metro.paip.net/matt/gay/victims.html) for a whole lot more. We need more heroes, not killers. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/38 "2003-06-20T23:53:47Z")
I got nothin’ on **Brutus** ’s snarky little innuendo from Google News. Cite please? Or is this an old accusation being dredged up? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/39 "2003-06-20T23:57:07Z")
Never mind, [I found it](http://www.metroweekly.com/feature/?ak=391). Not surprisingly, it’s a creakingly old item that turned out to have no basis in fact _years and fucking years ago._ Charming. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887/40 "2003-06-21T00:25:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Never mind, [I found it](http://www.metroweekly.com/feature/?ak=391). Not surprisingly, it’s a creakingly old item that turned out to have no basis in fact _years and fucking years ago._ Charming. \*\* Well to be fair, it was partially true. Rep. Frank did pay the guy to have sex with him, but thats where it ended. The man 'fessed up to it, indicating he has more balls and brains than God gave your average representative in this area (which would be somewhere below the flea). The folks re-elected him, and since then we’ve heard nary a peep about his private life except that he’s four years into a commited relationship. Sounds like a pretty boring guy to me, really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-it-take-a-gay-version-columbine-to-open-the-publics-eyes/182887.md?page=3)