# Will Jeffrey Epstein's "friends" face justice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2020, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242 "2020-08-04T11:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/322 "2025-07-24T20:54:39Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > This is pretty damning from 2010, before Epstein had any reason to fear Trump’s wrath. Sounds like covering up to me. Absolutely and totally wrong. Claiming your Rights is never, ever “damning”. The fact that you refused to answer a question using the 5th for example, can **not** be used as evidence against you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/323 "2025-07-24T20:56:19Z")
I’ve spent the last two minutes looking everywhere around me, but I’ll be damned if I can see the walls of the jury box. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/324 "2025-07-24T20:58:14Z")
I can use any evidence I like for my own opinions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/325 "2025-07-24T21:01:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve spent the last two minutes looking everywhere around me, but I’ll be damned if I can see the walls of the jury box. You dont need a jury box. Taking the 5th cant be used as probable cause, or to get an indictment. In fact Lawyers recommend that totally innocent people refuse to answer questions without an attorney present, and then only when the lawyer okays it. > **[Understanding the Fifth Amendment Right to Remain Silent](https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/fifth-amendment)** > > The Fifth Amendment right to remain silent is one of the most valuable rights we have.   But there is a lot of confusion about what this right entails: when c > **[I’m Innocent. So Why Shouldn't I Talk to the Police? | Wolfe Law Group](https://www.wvwlegal.com/blog/im-innocent-so-why-shouldnt-i-talk-to-the-police/)** > > Whether you believe you are innocent or guilty, never freely give information to a police officer. Instead, get legal support ASAP to protect your rights. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/326 "2025-07-24T21:03:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Claiming your Rights is never, ever “damning”. > > The fact that you refused to answer a question using the 5th for example, can **not** be used as evidence against you. That’s not necessarily true. If, in a deposition taken during a civil case, you invoke the 5th amendment, it is true that your refusal to answer can’t be used against you in a _criminal prosecution_. But, for purposes of the civil case, your refusal can be used to create an _adverse inference_ which can be used as evidence against you. So, Epstein may not be charged on the basis that he refused to answer a question about underage girls, but it is certainly true that you can _presume_ that his answer would have been incriminating. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/327 "2025-07-24T21:03:43Z")
Who cares? We’re talking about opinions, not courtrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/328 "2025-07-24T21:07:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You dont need a jury box. Taking the 5th cant be used as probable cause, or to get an indictment. And what’s more, it can’t even be taken into account by an individual thinking about someone! I just tried, and it’s _completely impossible._ Forget the courtroom–it’s a fundamental feature of the human brain that we’re unable to make personal judgments about someone based on their actions, unless those judgments comport with local, state, and federal judiciary standards. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/329 "2025-07-24T21:12:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Forget the courtroom–it’s a fundamental feature of the human brain that we’re unable to make personal judgments about someone based on their actions, unless those judgments comport with local, state, and federal judiciary standards. As I just mentioned upthread, the law is reasonable enough to recognize that a person refusing to answer a question is probably concerned about the answer, and so that refusal is actually usable against you if you are litigating in civil court. It’s only the principle of not being a witness against yourself in a criminal case that has generated a narrow exception, ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/330 "2025-07-24T21:13:03Z")
Epstein is dead, he doesn’t have rights anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/331 "2025-07-24T21:17:17Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > that refusal is actually usable against you if you are litigating in civil court. > > It’s only the principle of not being a witness against yourself in a criminal case that has generated a narrow exception, Huh. So I guess the important question is, was @aurora_maire pursuing a criminal indictment as a district attorney, or a civil case as a private lawyer, in her post? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/332 "2025-07-24T21:22:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh. So I guess the important question is, was @aurora_maire pursuing a criminal indictment as a district attorney, or a civil case as a private lawyer, in her post? So, are you saying that when aurora\_maire didnt bother to say “In my opinion” or even IMHO, that they were expressing an opinion, but I was not expressing an opinion? So, they were right and i was wrong? Think about your apparent outrage here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/333 "2025-07-24T21:30:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, are you saying that when aurora\_maire didnt bother to say “In my opinion” or even IMHO, that they were expressing an opinion, but I was not expressing an opinion? “This is damning” is a value judgment. That’s an opinion. “Absolutely and totally wrong” is a statement about truth value. That’s an incorrect belief. Unless aurora was making their statement as part of a criminal prosecution in a court of law, it’s beyond silly to hold the statement to that standard. Edit: that said, I’m done with this. I think it’s transparently obvious how silly it is to hold that standard as the applicable one, and pursuing it further risks hijacking the thread into nonsensical pedantry. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/334 "2025-07-24T22:30:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The fact that you refused to answer a question using the 5th for example, can **not** be used as evidence against you. Lest we forget the ultimate authority: > “The mob takes the Fifth,” he said at an Iowa campaign rally in September. “If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” - DJ Trump [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/23/if-youre-innocent-why-are-you-taking-the-fifth-trump-said-years-after-invoking-it-himself/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/23/if-youre-innocent-why-are-you-taking-the-fifth-trump-said-years-after-invoking-it-himself/) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/335 "2025-07-25T00:09:32Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Epstein is dead, he doesn’t have rights anymore. He is, however, very _very_ good at not answering questions anymore. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/336 "2025-07-25T00:18:31Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Epstein is dead, he doesn’t have rights anymore. His estate does, notably the principle of abatement of a criminal proceeding. A person who dies pending trial on criminal charges cannot be tried or convicted. That is a financial benefit to the estate, as it is impossible to fine a dead person. Kenny Lay (of Enron) similarly died before final judgment, so his criminal appeal abated, the conviction was set aside, and he died not guilty of any fraud. That doesn’t affect civil proceedings, only criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/337 "2025-07-25T00:28:46Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Kenny Lay (of Enron) similarly died before final judgment, so his criminal appeal abated, the conviction was set aside, and he died not guilty of any fraud. Didn’t that happen to a politician who shot himself on TV? Was that the reason he did it? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/338 "2025-07-25T00:39:27Z")
That woudl be Budd Dwyer. His appeals were dismissed posthumously. I don’t know why the courts in that case rejected abatement: > **[R. Budd Dwyer | Appeals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Budd_Dwyer#Appeals)** > > On January 27, 1987, Dwyer's lawyers filed an appeal in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania seeking the dismissal of all post-trial motions that were then pending against Dwyer, abatement of Dwyer's conviction and the dismissal of his May 13, 1986, indictment. On March 5, 1987, the district court denied all motions, stating that "there were no grounds whatsoever upon which Mr. Dwyer could hope to succeed upon appeal" and ordered to "close this file as to R. Budd Dwyer"... Abatement of Kenny Lay’s convictions: > **[Kenneth Lay | Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay#Death)** > > Lay died on July 5, 2006, while vacationing in Colorado. The Pitkin County Sheriff's Department confirmed that officers were called to Lay's house in Snowmass, Colorado, near Aspen at 1:41 am Mountain Daylight Time. Lay was taken to Aspen Valley Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 3:11 am MDT. The autopsy indicated that he died of a heart attack brought on by coronary artery disease, and found evidence that he had suffered a previous heart attack. > A private funeral for about 200 people was... ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/339 "2025-07-30T16:44:17Z")
If we have any journalists on the forums, one thing that I note is that there’s at least one potential cache of information that’s outside of US jurisdiction. The French investigated and arrested Jean-Luc Brunel, model agency owner, for his involvement with Epstein and due to other accusations against him. Brunel, similarly, died by suicide in jail. If they did arrest him, that would seem to mean that they had evidence against him - via witness testimony, financial records, chat logs, videos, etc. These are all, presumably, still somewhere in France and - like the Epstein files - potentially free to be released. I also note, rather curiously, that there are reports that Maxwell committed some of her crimes in the UK. The London Metro Police, however, said that they felt like it made sense to allow the US to lead the investigation and to only do anything if asked to do so. The US made no request to the UK, to search her residences nor look for evidence. This would have been 2020, during the first term of President Trump. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/340 "2025-07-31T00:36:16Z")
I am willing to bet a million quatloos that IF said files are released, there is no trump smoking gun. Maybe there was nothing big or maybe it was cut out. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242/341 "2025-07-31T00:56:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That woudl be Budd Dwyer. His appeals were dismissed posthumously. I don’t know why the courts in that case rejected abatement: I read the Wikipedia article. Stuff like this messes me up so much. The evidence against him was staggering yet he behaved the way you would expect from an innocent man, and his paranoia about a conspiracy seems authentic to me. I’m beginning to wonder if the guy was a schizophrenic or suffered delusions that made him convinced he was innocent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-jeffrey-epsteins-friends-face-justice/917242.md?page=18)