# Will Microsoft stop making scenery disks of real cities **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 16, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022 "2001-09-16T21:55:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/1 "2001-09-16T21:55:32Z")
On the ‘crawl’ of either CNN or FNC I saw a mention that MS was going to remove the Twin Towers from future versions of Flight Sim, I guess just to make them visually accurate. I was wondering whether they might just stop making realistic scenery disks of big cities with skyscrapers altogether. Anyone who’s owned MSFS knows that, at some point, you’ve deliberately flown your plane into the Sears Tower just for (what was then) fun. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/2 "2001-09-16T23:26:30Z")
There’s a bad joke going around, the terrorists insisted on using Microsoft flight simulators because they wanted to learn how to crash. I don’t see the point of removing the scenery files of major cities. This data is plainly available on a map, or to anyone who walks down the street. What will people demand next? Removing the fires and Godzilla from SimCity? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/3 "2001-09-17T00:37:25Z")
Playing a P.C. flight sim is not going to give anyone anything that would be useful to fly a real commercial airliner. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/4 "2001-09-17T11:23:54Z")
Yeah right. There was an incident in July 99 where a Japanese flight-sim fanatic with no previous piloting experience hijacked a 747 at knifepoint, and commandeered the controls. He managed to fly for 90 seconds before being subdued by the copilot. The hijacker wanted to fly the 747 under a bridge, just like in his flight sim. When he was subdued, he had taken the plane down to 1000ft and was lining up to go under the bridge. Sounds like he learned enough from the sim. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/5 "2001-09-17T15:08:42Z")
Actually, I heard a commentary on NPR regarding how the terrorists learned how to fly. The person speaking said that the simulations are remarkably accurate, show a relatively realistic cockpit layout, and can be used to learn to fly. (He specifically mentioned the Microsoft simulator) That combined with a few real simulator hours could have enabled the people in question to fly the commercial airliners. If anyone wants a cite, I’ll look, but it was on Thursday and not a major piece. Zette ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/6 "2001-09-17T15:33:40Z")
I found a cite for the above: [http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=9%2F13%2F2001&PrgID=2](http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=9%2F13%2F2001&PrgID=2) It’s an audio file of the show segment, so I can’t pull any direct quotes. When you get to the page, scroll down until you see “Flight Instruction” (or something to that effect) Sorry I can’t be more exact- NPR must need more hamsters in their web server, too. Hokey Smokes is it ever slow. The pages BARELY load. Zette ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/7 "2001-09-17T15:35:32Z")
I think most pilots would tell you that PC flight sims are not terribly accurate and are more likely to give you _the impression_ that you know how to fly a plane, than any real ability. However, if it came to one of those movie scenarios where the pilot and copilot both collapse (they both ate the chicken) and one of the passengers has to have a go (with the spoken instruction and assistance of an experienced pilot on the ground), I wonder if the sim experience would be a help or a hindrance… I think I may start another thread asking this question. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/8 "2001-09-17T16:45:37Z")
I think everyone missed the fact that each hijack crew had a trained pilot on board. MS flight sim was used to learn specifics of the 767 cockpit such as the flight management system, transponder and autopilot. A person who has only used MS flight sim and never actualy flown probably couldn’t accomplish the terrorists attack but a pilot could benefit from the simulator. ---
**Author:** ![Dragwyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dragwyr/32/2855_2.png) [@Dragwyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragwyr)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/9 "2001-09-17T17:12:07Z")
According to Bruce Williams and Andy Silverman at [http://zone.msn.com/flightsim2000/tips/fs2kwilliamssilvermanchat.asp](http://zone.msn.com/flightsim2000/tips/fs2kwilliamssilvermanchat.asp) it is only possible to use MS Flight Simulator towards 10 hrs on your instrument rating. > [@](#): > > Well, the PCATD AC from the FAA specifies that a PCATD system can ONLY be used for 10 hours towards your instrument rating. It may not currently be used for logging any sort of training time after you’ve already received your instrument rating. This is assuming that the latest version of Flight Simulator will be PCATD certified. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/10 "2001-09-17T17:16:49Z")
As long as we’re talking about banning flight simulators, why not go the extra yard and ban MAPS? Maps can be used to give terrorists locations and directions for striking any number of targets. Unbelievably, we even allow the sale of maps that show where streets are located, which could allow terrorists and criminals of all kinds to plan getaways. Some maps are even available on the Internet! ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/11 "2001-09-17T17:33:57Z")
> [@](#): > > As long as we’re talking about banning flight simulators, why not go the extra yard and ban MAPS Um, who mentioned anything about banning the use of simulators? larry said: > [@](#): > > Playing a P.C. flight sim is not going to give anyone anything that would be useful to fly a real commercial airliner. And the discussion has continued from there. As far as I can read, there is no one calling for the banning of simulation games. Zette ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/12 "2001-09-17T23:21:43Z")
**RickJay** , the same thoughts are going through my mind, but don’t jump the gun. The debate over whether or not we ban anything is just that: A debate. A Great Debate at that, if you catch my meaning. **Zette** , thanks for the rational input. Now, to respond to the thread as it stands: Flying a flight sim is only as good a training tool as you make it. If you buy all of the hardware, like the yoke and the pedals, and you follow up with real flying, a very good flight sim (and the Microsoft flight sim is very good) can help you learn to fly. If, however, you use the keyboard and basically fly to have fun and kill time, as I did, you wouldn’t have much chance in a real aircraft. [Here’s an interesting article on the topic.](http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?%24=main/op-ed/ed152.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/13 "2001-09-17T23:26:44Z")
The only role I can picture a MS Flight Sim playing is maybe, given how near-photo realistic they’ve become, it could have been used again and again to practice the flight path to the Towers. Using it to line up the final approach with other visual NYC landmarks, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/14 "2001-09-17T23:30:16Z")
What about removing it by Microsoft to AVOID lawsuits. I mean any NORMAL person knows to remove shells before consuming nutmeat and any NORMAL person knows coffee is hot but that didn’t stop people from suing. Why not just remove the product than risk the suit? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/15 "2001-09-17T23:38:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\*The only role I can picture a MS Flight Sim playing is maybe, given how near-photo realistic they’ve become, it could have been used again and again to practice the flight path to the Towers. Using it to line up the final approach with other visual NYC landmarks, that sort of thing. \*\* Well, the article I linked to suggests that flight sims _hamper_ visual (as opposed to instrument) flight training, so it would seem that the terrorists would not have wanted to use them to practice that aspect of their flight. [tangent] > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Markxxx_ > \*\*any NORMAL person knows coffee is hot \*\* [THE MCDONALD’S SCALDING COFFEE CASE (Liebeck vs. McDonald’s)](http://www.atlanet.org/cjfacts/other/mcdonald.ht) Read the real case before you jump to conclusions. Coffee should **not** cause third-degree burns. [/tangent] ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/16 "2001-09-18T01:27:42Z")
What has surprised me is the number of news organizations–CBS in particular–that have gone on the air with this game and re-enacted the crash into the Twin Towers. I don’t see what they are accomplishing by that. I don’t think Microsoft or any other flight sim manufacturers would remove the realistic scenery from the simulators. What’s the point of simulating flight in a game if there’s nothing to do but take off, circle over some fields, and land? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/17 "2001-09-18T04:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > > \*\*The only role I can picture a MS Flight Sim playing is maybe, given how near-photo realistic they’ve become, it could have been used again and again to practice the flight path to the Towers. Using it to line up the final approach with other visual NYC landmarks, that sort of thing. \*\* > > Well, the article I linked to suggests that flight sims _hamper_ visual (as opposed to instrument) flight training, so it would seem that the terrorists would not have wanted to use them to practice that aspect of their flight. > > [tangent] > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Markxxx_ > > \*\*any NORMAL person knows coffee is hot \*\* > > [THE MCDONALD’S SCALDING COFFEE CASE (Liebeck vs. McDonald’s)](http://www.atlanet.org/cjfacts/other/mcdonald.ht) Read the real case before you jump to conclusions. Coffee should **not** cause third-degree burns. > > [/tangent] \*\* If you read the case you find that NOT EVERYONE that spilled the coffee got a third degree burn. Her age and other factors contributed to her getting a third degree burns. You can get a third degree burn from a heating pad or toaster. Further reductions in award damages confirmed this. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/18 "2001-09-18T04:41:59Z")
I’m officially sick of people refighting the McDonald’s coffee thing in this forum. We have forums for that. Bring it up again in this thread, and you’re a former member. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/19 "2001-09-18T07:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, the article I linked to suggests that flight sims hamper visual (as opposed to instrument) flight training, so it would seem that the terrorists would not have wanted to use them to practice that aspect of their flight. Did the terrorists have access to this article prior to their attack? ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-microsoft-stop-making-scenery-disks-of-real-cities/82022/20 "2001-09-18T14:51:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Zette, thanks for the rational input. Your welcome. It really was an interesting news bit- I belive the speaker was an expert pilot trainer. Hells bells- now the link doesn’t work. Anyhoo, it was on NPR on Thursday evening (All Things Considered) on September 13- you can check the archives if you wish to. Manny, a million thanks for killing that tangent quickly. Zette