# Will Moussaoui get a pointer to Mecca? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692 "2006-05-06T19:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/21 "2006-05-07T01:25:32Z")
What would be hilarious would be painting three qiblas in the cell… I am not actually advocating doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/22 "2006-05-07T02:00:03Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > Making him read the same post 3 times is cruel. But alas, here, not all that unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/23 "2006-05-07T02:02:10Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > In general, if a Muslim doesn’t know which way Mecca is, and has no hope of knowing for sure, what next? Like, for example, if he or she is lost in wilderness and dying. Or jailed in a less accommodating country. Are they to abstain from prayer? Do they pray anyway, and it’s not a big deal? > > I’m talking about the average Muslim here. Is there a commonly held belief in the Muslim community about this type of situation? I’m gonna go ahead and start a new GQ thread about this. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/24 "2006-05-07T02:50:18Z")
I’m in favor of a big honking cannon, full of gunpowder, aimed towards Mecca. Stuff Moussaoui down the barrel. Pray now, bitch. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/25 "2006-05-07T03:04:25Z")
It’s not like we’ve never had a Muslim prisoner before. I’m sure there is a whole chapter of some state-issued books somewhere on “reasonable accomdoations for Muslim prisoners” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/26 "2006-05-07T03:39:52Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > Making him read the same post 3 times is cruel. Well, aren’t they supposed to pray three times a day? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/27 "2006-05-07T03:46:01Z")
5 times a day. Maybe we could get a stunt clock installed in his cell, and vary the speed of the dial at random intervals. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/28 "2006-05-07T06:30:35Z")
Just tell him a few years into his punishment, “Wait, you said ‘Mecca’? Holy shit, the arrow we painted in your cell was in the direction of the home of popular American actor Mekhi Phifer! He lives in Los Angeles! You really need to speak up.” ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/29 "2006-05-07T06:56:02Z")
No, that would be _hilarious_ and unusual. Stopping him from practicing his religion would be cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/30 "2006-05-07T07:12:08Z")
Actually is seems to me that Supermax prison for punitive purposes rather than to detain someone who is a large escape risk, is cruel and unusual. The normal punitive theory is that deprivation of liberty is the punishment and such things as solitary confinement or suspension of privileges are extraordinary measures taken to assert prison discipline. Secondly, an obvious question: Do we in fact know that Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim, rather than Al Queda/Anti-American? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/31 "2006-05-07T07:35:22Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Secondly, an obvious question: Do we in fact know that Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim, rather than Al Queda/Anti-American? Huh? Do you mean, like, is he one of those Methodist Al Qaeda members? “Well, I’m really not into the whole ‘Smite the infidels in the Name of Allah’ thing, but they’ve got a great dental plan.” ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/32 "2006-05-07T08:56:14Z")
If I might invite you to open your mind just a smidge, it seems to me there is a real likelihood that the ‘aspriring terrorist and actual lunatic’ demographic does not have a whole lot of overlap with the ‘devoutly religious.’ I realise there is a lot of energy expended to imply the contrary where the religion under discussion is Islam, so we are to an extent paddling against the tide. But work with me here. In any case, the inquiry is factual: Is there evidence that Moussaoui is a practising Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/33 "2006-05-07T09:05:03Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > If I might invite you to open your mind just a smidge, it seems to me there is a real likelihood that the ‘aspriring terrorist and actual lunatic’ demographic does not have a whole lot of overlap with the ‘devoutly religious.’ It would seem to me that open mind here does not mean being empty headed. Al Qaeda is an extremist religious organisation, by its own self definition. In fact, its ideology attacks the idea of not being devout as being acceptable. > [@](#): > > I realise there is a lot of energy expended to imply the contrary where the religion under discussion is Islam, so we are to an extent paddling against the tide. But work with me here. There is no reason to, surely Islam gets a bad reputation and much ignorant comments, but this has nothing to do with al Qaeda and religious practice. > [@](#): > > In any case, the inquiry is factual: Is there evidence that Moussaoui is a practising Muslim? Very much, his attendance to radical mosques in Londres, his dress and comportment since arrest - the Salafine style beard, his quotations, in fact everything. His is clearly a practising and devout (in his own way) Muslim in the al Qaeda path, this is clear to anyone with the lightest intelligence who bothers to read one thing about the man. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/34 "2006-05-07T09:13:05Z")
Well, being as it is so obvious, perhaps a cite would be in order? One that plainly states he is a practicing Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/35 "2006-05-07T09:21:07Z")
You know, getting woken up at the crack of dawn every morning by a Call To Prayer must be really annoying if you’re _NOT_ Muslim… I imagine it’s a case of “Tough shit”, but couldn’t a non-Muslim prisoner claim it was “Cruel and unusual punishment”? I know I would… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/36 "2006-05-07T09:27:51Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > If I might invite you to open your mind just a smidge, it seems to me there is a real likelihood that the ‘aspriring terrorist and actual lunatic’ demographic does not have a whole lot of overlap with the ‘devoutly religious.’ That makes no sense; if someone is hyped up enough about religion to kill others, how are they not “devout” ? If anything, devout’s an understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/37 "2006-05-07T09:30:16Z")
[A few extracts from the Wiki’ entry on Moussaoui](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui) > [@](#): > > Moussaoui’s mother, Aicha el-Wafi, was 14 when she was married in Morocco[3]. Five years later, his parents moved to France, where he was born. After enduring domestic violence, his mother left his father while her four children were still young[4]. She raised her children on a cleaning woman’s salary. **There was no religious education within the family.** > [@](#): > > He made his initial steps into radical indoctrination in Brixton Mosque, where he met future “shoe bomber” Richard Reid, though he was **expelled from the mosque** after he turned up wearing combat fatigues and a backpack, and pressured the cleric to give him information on joining the jihad > [@](#): > > Moussaoui enters guilty plea: “I have knowledge and I participated in al Qaeda. I am a member of Al Qaeda.”… “ **I pledge bayat to Osama Bin Laden** ” _(my emphases)_ Moreover, there is no positive evidence in the Wiki’ article of religious devotion. What we have appears to be evidence of someone with a casual or sporadic connection with Islam. It shows Moussaoui’s committment to ‘jihad’ and Osama Bin Laden in person, instead of a religious dedication. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/38 "2006-05-07T09:32:53Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > That makes no sense; if someone is hyped up enough about religion to kill others, how are they not “devout” ? If anything, devout’s an understatement. People do mad things and claim religious justification all the time. This doesn’t mean they follow or practice the religion in any identifiable form. To dodge Mr Godwin: Is Fred Phelps a devout Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/39 "2006-05-07T09:44:34Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > People do mad things and claim religious justification all the time. This doesn’t mean they follow or practice the religion in any identifiable form. > > To dodge Mr Godwin: Is Fred Phelps a devout Christian? I don’t think you’re making a completely reasonable distinction here. Obviously Fred Phelps’ behavior is not motivated by Christian teachings - one only need compare Christian teachings to his actions to see that. And certainly if he weren’t screwed up in the head, he wouldn’t practice his “religion” in the way he does. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t somehow believe sincerely that he’s devoutly Christian. I would suggest the same is true of members of al-Qaeda. Arguably, they’re _not_ Muslim, as they’ve violating some fundamental tenets of the religion. And without a doubt they’re behavior is mostly motivated by being fucked up in the head. That doesn’t mean they don’t feel it’s a religious thing. I don’t think you can separate the two. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/40 "2006-05-07T09:59:32Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > People do mad things and claim religious justification all the time. This doesn’t mean they follow or practice the religion in any identifiable form. > > To dodge Mr Godwin: Is Fred Phelps a devout Christian? Yes. “Devout” and “nice” are not the nice thing. Nor is Christianity a very nice religion; the Crusades and Inquisition come to mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692.md?page=3)