# Will Moussaoui get a pointer to Mecca? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692 "2006-05-06T19:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/41 "2006-05-07T10:00:12Z")
This becomes more stupid with every addition you make. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > [A few extracts from the Wiki’ entry on Moussaoui](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui) > > … There was no religious education within the family. And? This says nothing but Madame el Wafi like many French Muslims never bothered with formal religious education in the family. next you strangely quote the very evidence of his becoming a practising Muslim: > [@](#): > > expelled from the mosquee Somehow you believe this is evidence against devoteness? By all accounts Moussaouie became converted to radical Salafi practise while he was in London, upon attending the Brixton mosque. He was expelled when he wanted the Imam to give him directions on participating in Jihad, which the Salafi radicals consider a great pillar of the religion. He then since devouted himself to this radical vision, abandoning his prior plans to become a businessman, etc., for a life of the religious radical. The pledge of the bayat itself is something only the religiously devout do, the word is a technical one in Islam; his use of the term even says he is practising for he would not use it otherwise. > [@](#): > > Moreover, there is no positive evidence in the Wiki’ article of religious devotion. Only because you wish to close your eyes. > [@](#): > > What we have appears to be evidence of someone with a casual or sporadic connection with Islam. It shows Moussaoui’s committment to ‘jihad’ and Osama Bin Laden in person, instead of a religious dedication. Casual and sporadic? Incredible, you are a fool or an idiot. Since he “converted” to the radical Salafi beliefs, he has been very connected - in fact devouted his life to Islam - that vision of Islam, but it is the vision of an important minority. For those who belief in this manner, that is religious devotion, even if you for some bizarre and stupid reason want to make a semantic difference, a fake difference. If you wish to say his devotion is a perversion or something, fine. I agree. But it is devotion, and it is clear from his personal behaviour and appearance during the American trial that he is subscribing to the Salafi practice - the beard, the head covering, all this speaks to him being practising and devout. His appearance before, at his arrest says perhaps he was “hiding” but since then he has not. ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/42 "2006-05-07T10:13:10Z")
To end the silly part of this conversation, a cite from the CBC: [http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruiters/moussaoui.html](http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruiters/moussaoui.html) You find here his mother and brother commenting on how he became rigidly religious after London, and practising. This should end the stupidity of trying to claim no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/43 "2006-05-07T10:22:02Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Yes. “Devout” and “nice” are **not the nice thing.** :smack: Make that "not the _same_ thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/44 "2006-05-07T11:08:47Z")
**Maziiadar** , I see that English is not your first language. See how I don’t insult you because you don’t express yourself perfectly? As you do not use English natively, I suggest you be more careful and do not say other people are ‘stupid’, ‘fools’ and ‘idiots’ so quickly. You should be very careful that you have the evidence to make such claims. More so when the other person is me. Firstly, I claimed there was no positive evidence _in the Wiki article_. Secondly, this talk of Salafi may all be true, however there was no evidence of it before and it does not appear that you have provided a link to support that claim. Lastly, you will note that I stated my view as a question: > [@](#): > > Do we in fact know that Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim, rather than Al Queda/Anti-American? This indicates that I am asking for information, not that I am arguing for a position. As to your cite, I don’t see where it shows that Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim. These quotes suggest something but I am not sure what. > [@](#): > > Zacarias had never been very religious, so when he visited his mother, she found it somewhat odd that he kept disappearing into the bathroom to perform his prayers. > … > Zacarias Moussaoui shaved off his hair and prepared to become a soldier of God, a mujahedeen. See how I’ve been all courteous and understanding, where you are vulnerable? Consider it an education. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/45 "2006-05-07T12:36:28Z")
> [@maziiadar](#): > > The pledge of the bayat itself is something only the religiously devout do, the word is a technical one in Islam; his use of the term even says he is practising for he would not use it otherwise. And no **real** Muslim would pledge his bayat to anyone except Allah, the Prophet Muhammad, and if they are Shia, Hazrat Ali and his successors, of which OBL is **decidedly** not a part. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/46 "2006-05-07T12:55:55Z")
How about putting the marker in the exact opposite direction for a few years and then telling him that he’s been showing his ass to Mohammed five times a day? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/47 "2006-05-07T13:27:44Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > How about putting the marker in the exact opposite direction for a few years and then telling him that he’s been showing his ass to Mohammed five times a day? First off, Mohammed is not in Mecca. Apparently he flew off to heaven on a horse. Secondly, if he prayed in the opposite direction, his prayers would still reach Mecca, only it would take a little longer. Which leads me to ponder the fact that their must be a place on this earth, the exact opposite location from Mecca on this globe where Muslim convicts could be housed without worrying about which direction they must face. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/48 "2006-05-07T13:56:16Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > How about putting the marker in the exact opposite direction for a few years and then telling him that he’s been showing his ass to Mohammed five times a day? The _qibla_ or direction of prayer isn’t considered to point toward Muhammad (who is dead, btw, and thus not considered in Muslim theology to have a physical location on earth any longer), but rather toward the “Sacred Mosque” or Ka`aba, the holy shrine of Mecca. (The Prophet’s grave isn’t even located in Mecca, but rather in Medina.) And there is no penalty or sin attached to inadvertently offering the _salat_ or Muslim prayers in an [incorrect direction](http://www.albalagh.net/qa/salat_wrong_qibla.shtml): > [@](#): > > Q.) I came to Abu Dhabi, did the assesment about qibla and started performing salat acordingly. Later on someone asked us to check the direction again. We did check it and it was wrong. What do we have to do with salats that were performed earlier. Should we repeat them? > > A.) The Salats performed according to the previous calculation are valid. > [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > First off, Mohammed is not in Mecca. Apparently he flew off to heaven on a horse. I think you’re thinking of the “Night Journey”, in which the Prophet is said to have flown to Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem on a winged horse, and then to have been taken on a tour of heaven by the angel Gabriel. But it was a temporary trip, and he came back and founded Islam. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/49 "2006-05-07T14:51:31Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > You serious? I am serious. I even underlined the word unusual. Axe murderers, cannibals, mafia bosses etc get to read bibles, talk to the prison chaplain etc. To deliberately deny one prisoner out of all these others the ability to practice their religion would fit right into the unusual punishment category. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/50 "2006-05-07T14:53:26Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > I’m in favor of a big honking cannon, full of gunpowder, aimed towards Mecca. Stuff Moussaoui down the barrel. Pray now, bitch. Do you really want to promote that asshole to martyr status? Bad idea. Let him rot and be forgotten instead. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/51 "2006-05-07T14:56:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think you’re thinking of the “Night Journey”, in which the Prophet is said to have flown to Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem on a winged horse, and then to have been taken on a tour of heaven by the angel Gabriel. But it was a temporary trip, and he came back and founded Islam. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/52 "2006-05-07T15:07:23Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Huh? Do you mean, like, is he one of those Methodist Al Qaeda members? “I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists!” Gotta love Hedley Lamar… ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/53 "2006-05-07T15:58:21Z")
Could you repeat that, sir? -Taggart ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/54 "2006-05-07T16:58:31Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > And no **real** Muslim would pledge his bayat to anyone except Allah, the Prophet Muhammad, and if they are Shia, Hazrat Ali and his successors, of which OBL is **decidedly** not a part. So you have the knowledge to pronounce takfir on the Muslims you don’t like? The question was, is Moussaouie practising? The clear answer is there is every sign that by the Salafi standards he most certainly is. “Real” is a term that people like him like to use about others. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/55 "2006-05-07T20:04:53Z")
> [@maziiadar](#): > > So you have the knowledge to pronounce takfir on the Muslims you don’t like? > > The question was, is Moussaouie practising? The clear answer is there is every sign that by the Salafi standards he most certainly is. “Real” is a term that people like him like to use about others. :dubious: The man has pledged his bayat to OBL. Traditionally, as I hope you know, bayat was/is a term reserved for the express oath of loyallty to Allah, his Messenger, and the ulil-Amr, i.e. the holders of (divine) authority from the people. As far as I can tell, OBL is none of those, and so, by Moussaouie pledging his bayat to OBL, his devoutness **is** suspect. He may be loyal and devout to the Salafi sect and to OBL, but to a religion whose very name invokes peace? ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/56 "2006-05-07T22:05:10Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > The man has pledged his bayat to OBL. … As far as I can tell, OBL is none of those, and so, by Moussaouie pledging his bayat to OBL, his devoutness **is** suspect. He may be loyal and devout to the Salafi sect and to OBL, but to a religion whose very name invokes peace? His devoutness is not suspect if one is not making devoutness mean something more than being devoted to some form of religion, merely his knowledge or understanding in “good” theology or maybe mainstream practices. His theology may be bad, but that is a **unrelated question** , unless you want to say that his not really practising as a Salafi. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/57 "2006-05-08T02:29:12Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Which leads me to ponder the fact that their must be a place on this earth, the exact opposite location from Mecca on this globe where Muslim convicts could be housed without worrying about which direction they must face. Mecca is at 21° 29’ N, 39° 45’ E. The antipodal location would be 21° 29’ S, 140° 15’ W (in the Pacific amongst the islands of French Polynesia). ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/58 "2006-05-08T02:42:47Z")
From the article linked many posts ago: > [@](#): > > Moussaoui’s best hope is that France could, at some stage, ask to allow him to serve out his sentence in a French jail. My intuition says the US will probably never let him go, for any reason. Anyone with knowledge of international affairs like this able to confirm that? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/59 "2006-05-08T03:05:00Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Mecca is at 21° 29’ N, 39° 45’ E. The antipodal location would be 21° 29’ S, 140° 15’ W (in the Pacific amongst the islands of French Polynesia). Putting them in the middle of the ocean would solve the problem, although one suspects them human rights folks would find something to complain about if we did it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/60 "2006-05-08T03:58:22Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > [A few extracts from the Wiki’ entry on Moussaoui](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui) Biggest problem is that you quote Wikipedia which I do not consider to be a reliable source. That said, he may not be technically a religious muslim (that is, he doesn’t follow all the tenents) but I think it is safe to say that he is “religious”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692.md?page=4)