# Will Moussaoui get a pointer to Mecca? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692 "2006-05-06T19:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/61 "2006-05-08T04:00:03Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Could you repeat that, sir? > -Taggart I think we’ve had enough repetition in this thread, thanks. …Schmucks… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/62 "2006-05-08T04:49:52Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Biggest problem is that you quote Wikipedia which I do not consider to be a reliable source. It is not a problem, it is a starting point. > [@Lochdale](#): > > That said, he may not be technically a religious muslim (that is, he doesn’t follow all the tenents) but I think it is safe to say that he is “religious”. Why exactly? I asked earlier, perhaps more than once, for a straightforward link that says: “Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim.” From the tone of some here, it should be the easiest of things. Instead, zilch & nix. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/63 "2006-05-08T05:41:32Z")
I’ve a question for those of you who think that actively preventing a prisoner from practicing his religion is funny, actually two questions: 1. Are you proud of yourself for that idea? 2. What do you think it will accomplish, other than angering millions of people who’ve committed no crime? ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/64 "2006-05-08T06:01:42Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > It is not a problem, it is a starting point. > Why exactly? I asked earlier, perhaps more than once, for a straightforward link that says: “Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim.” From the tone of some here, it should be the easiest of things. Instead, zilch & nix. This is a lie and idiotic. There is all evidence that Moussaouie became a practising Muslim (it only requires prayer at its base) in a Salafiste Jihadi manner just before or when he was in London. This is clear. As already I gave the cite: His brother writes of him coming from London and making prayer and speaking in the Salafi pattern berating others for not being proper Muslims, wanting to go on Jihad (which the Salafi Jihadistes regard as a pillar), his Mother speaks of the same thing. No sentence says Moussaouie is practising because it is clear, only some idiot like yourself playing semantical games for some own reason I can not understand would claim otherwise. One can say the Salafiste Jihadi path is wrong, not correct Islam and many other things but it is irrelevant to the ordinary meaning of the question of is he practising, he clearly was (and no doubt is). And you are clearly a stupid and dishonest liar. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/65 "2006-05-08T07:16:37Z")
> [@maziiadar](#): > > His devoutness is not suspect if one is not making devoutness mean something more than being devoted to some form of religion, merely his knowledge or understanding in “good” theology or maybe mainstream practices. > > His theology may be bad, but that is a **unrelated question** , unless you want to say that his not really practising as a Salafi. I can’t really pronounce on whether he is or is not a practicing Salafi; I wouldn’t know, and I don’t know enough about Salafi theology to compare and contrast it to mainstream Muslim theology. However, his giving of bayat to OBL is deeply offensive to many mainstream Muslims. > [@maziiadar](#): > > \became a practising Muslim (it only requires prayer at its base) Not so. Surely for one to be a practicing Muslim, one must fulfil all five pillars of Islam, rather than just the requirement for prayer? Prayer is certainly a component, but without all five pillars the practice of Islam is incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/66 "2006-05-08T07:53:42Z")
Because someone has yet to observe all five pillars does not mean that one is not a Muslim. Such an assertion is ridiculous as that would mean every Muslim who has yet to perform the Pilgrimage is not a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/67 "2006-05-08T08:32:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Because someone has yet to observe all five pillars does not mean that one is not a Muslim. Such an assertion is ridiculous as that would mean every Muslim who has yet to perform the Pilgrimage is not a Muslim. Well yes, but my point is that prayer **alone** does not make a Muslim. Its a core part, yes, but not the only part. Also the Hajj is an obligation only on those who are able physically and financially (this includes having the financial means to finance one’s travel to Mecca and Medinah without incurring debt). You can be a Muslim without perfoming the Hajj, but whilst having the intention to do so when one is able. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/68 "2006-05-08T08:46:18Z")
So, you are now the entity who decides who is and who isn’t Muslim? Interesting. I’ll be sure to pass that along. My point was that the individual may be Muslim without having followed all five pillars at the moment. Actually, the way I understand it is that to become Muslim one must only pronounce the shahada. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/69 "2006-05-08T08:54:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, you are now the entity who decides who is and who isn’t Muslim? Interesting. I’ll be sure to pass that along. If only I was. Maybe I should have been more clear; in my branch of Islam, we’re taught that you can pray till you’re blue in the face, but if your actions don’t back up your declaration and outward expression of faith, then there’s not much point. I’m just saying that that’s what I’ve been taught – prayer is all well and good, but your actions must match up too. Now, Moussaoui will probably argue that his actions do back up his faith, and I’ll leave him to slug that one out with the Almighty when his time comes to do that. > [@](#): > > My point was that the individual may be Muslim without having followed all five pillars at the moment. Actually, the way I understand it is that to become Muslim one must only pronounce the shahada. More or less. In front of reliable witnesses I think, but that’s more or less it, unless you’re an uncircumsiced man. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/70 "2006-05-08T15:04:19Z")
Here’s another solution. Moussaoui gets a visitor. “Hey there Muslim boy, my name’s Bubba - I got yer pointer to Mecca right here. !!!” ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/71 "2006-05-08T15:15:01Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Here’s another solution. > Moussaoui gets a visitor. “Hey there Muslim boy, my name’s Bubba - I got yer pointer to Mecca right here. !!!” You’re always so clever. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/72 "2006-05-08T16:25:46Z")
He is receiving the punishment deemed to be just by the jury. In my book that makes him square with the house. To further punish is not justified. Being in US custody, he gets to practice whatever religion he says that he wants to practice. If he chooses Islam, then he gets a pointer to Mecca. It isn’t society’s job to judge whether he is truly a Muslim no more than society gets to say who keeps Bibles in their cells among marginally Christian inmates. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/73 "2006-05-08T16:54:26Z")
**Excaliber** > [@](#): > > You’re always so clever. Gee thanks. (and yes, my parents are _very_ proud.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![maziiadar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@maziiadar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maziiadar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/74 "2006-05-08T18:22:42Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > I can’t really pronounce on whether he is or is not a practicing Salafi; I wouldn’t know, and I don’t know enough about Salafi theology to compare and contrast it to mainstream Muslim theology. > > However, his giving of bayat to OBL is deeply offensive to many mainstream Muslims. And celebrated by Salafistes. Your observation, therefore only tells us that as in any religion, there is diversity of opinion in Islam. His giving bayat to bin Laden however tell us immediately that he is 1: Salafi, 2: religious enough to use such terms and to do such actions in the Salafi way. > [@](#): > > Not so. Surely for one to be a practicing Muslim, one must fulfil all five pillars of Islam, rather than just the requirement for prayer? Prayer is certainly a component, but without all five pillars the practice of Islam is incomplete. Good, I understand you do not like him and you wish to be tedious. Yes of course he has to have pronounced the Shahada but we can presume he did that already plus many not practising people do so. For Alms and for the Hajj, I think we can agree these are pillars he is not going to be able to do any time soon - No? So, we can say Ramadan. To be truly observant he should fast in Ramadan. But when it comes to it, you should have the honesty to admit that the line in practising and not practising practically is prayer. No, or do you wish to go on and on with qualiffication without meaning for the question about Moussaouie being a practising Muslim? I prefer to focus on the question key to the question. And since we have already testimony from his brother and mother that he prays, that he came back from London very motivated in the Salafi path, a rational person must conclude Moussaouie is a practising Muslim and that he follows the Salafis. One can pronounce takfir on the Salafis like they like to do on others, if you want, but they certainly think they are Muslims. The only ones sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/75 "2006-05-08T18:26:57Z")
> [@maziiadar](#): > > One can pronounce takfir on the Salafis like they like to do on others, if you want Ooh! Ooh! I wanna do it! Wait, I bet I’d have to be a Muslim to do so, wouldn’t I? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/76 "2006-05-08T18:49:17Z")
> [@maziiadar](#): > > Good, I understand you do not like him and you wish to be tedious. Yes of course he has to have pronounced the Shahada but we can presume he did that already plus many not practising people do so. For Alms and for the Hajj, I think we can agree these are pillars he is not going to be able to do any time soon - No? Indeed we can agree on your last point. Now, as to the point of me being “tedious”, you obviously didn’t bother to read the bit where I expanded on what is taught in my branch of Islam: > [@Angua](#): > > we’re taught that you can pray till you’re blue in the face, but if your actions don’t back up your declaration and outward expression of faith, then there’s not much point. I’m just saying that that’s what I’ve been taught – prayer is all well and good, but your actions must match up too. That _was_ the point I was trying to make, and I admit in my first post, it was badly worded, but you decided not to bother with that bit of what I wrote, because it didn’t agree with the point you were trying to make, namely that I was being tedious. Moussaoui may well argue that his actions do match his faith, and that’s for him to reconcile with his conscience and God. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/77 "2006-05-09T00:24:20Z")
In my branch of Christianity, we’re taught that our acts must show that we believe in God. That does not mean that those who fail to do so, or those who do not believe as we do, are not necessarily Christians. Basically, what this thread has turned into is a twist on the “True Scotsman” theme. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/78 "2006-05-09T00:39:27Z")
I can’t pronounce takfir. Is it pronounced Tack Fur, or is it Tok Feer? See? I can’t pronounce it. Give the dummy his little pointer thingy toward Mecca. Give him a copy of the Koran too for that matter. He’s still going to be rotting in prison, he isn’t going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/79 "2006-05-09T19:19:27Z")
You could give him a TV that gets nothing but “Hee Haw”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692/80 "2006-05-12T12:45:19Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] You could give him a TV that gets nothing but “Hee Haw”. [/QUOTE] And a stereo loaded with nothing but “The Transformed Man”. However, I’m pretty sure that both suggestions are prohibited under the Eighth Amendment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-moussaoui-get-a-pointer-to-mecca/355692.md?page=3)