# Will Muslim World have to cope with humanism and rationalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943 "2012-04-25T19:17:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/1 "2012-04-25T19:17:19Z")
\*_Catholicism and Protestantism had to cope with humanism and rationalism for hundreds of years. Thus the influence of religion on the Western World gradually have perished / have been perishing._ When the statement above is taken into account as true, we might also say one day Muslim World have to cope with humanism and rationalism, I guess. So, How is the impact of religion on Muslim World perish? How is he Renaissance of Muslim World going to be? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/2 "2012-04-25T19:20:26Z")
Who made the statement you quoted above? ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/3 "2012-04-25T19:26:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who made the statement you quoted above? I don’t remember at all. If it is wrong, how was the impact of religion eradicated? And again the same question, how is Islam’s impact on society going to be eradicated? In the same way in the West, or in a different way? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/4 "2012-04-25T19:34:46Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > I don’t remember at all. I don’t think you understand my question-where did you get this statement, “\*Catholicism and Protestantism had to cope with humanism and rationalism for hundreds of years. Thus the influence of religion on the Western World gradually have perished / have been perishing.” from? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/5 "2012-04-25T19:35:38Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > I don’t remember at all. If it is wrong, how was the impact of religion eradicated? I question that it has been in all of the western world. It sure doesn’t look that way in the US right now. Even if the influence of one religion on a few cultures _had_ been eradicated, that doesn’t mean that’s an inevitable historical pattern that’s going to happen to all religions in all cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/6 "2012-04-25T21:05:09Z")
OBJECTION! The OP, as so many anti-Muslim demagogues do, assumes that “the Muslim world” is a single entity that is wholly in agreement on all subjects presented to it, in this case, “humanism and rationalism”. Given that this is observably not true, the OP’s initial statement is begging the question. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/7 "2012-04-25T21:26:02Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **Otkakönmişkılıç**. We put different kinds of discussions in different forums – this one belongs in Great Debates, so I’ll move it thither. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/8 "2012-04-25T21:56:15Z")
I’d like to know exactly what the OP means by the influence of religion on the western world perishing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/9 "2012-04-25T22:04:18Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > I’d like to know exactly what the OP means by the influence of religion on the western world perishing. > [@](#): > > I question that it has been in all of the western world. It sure doesn’t look that way in the US right now. Oh, please. Pre-enlightenment we (the west) were burning witches at the stake. Women had few, if any, rights and there was no separation of church and state. It sounds like you think the US is a theocracy, but let’s not pretend the US = Saudi Arabia or Iran. The OP raises a question many of us have wondered about. Much of the Muslim world in the MENA region remains stuck in an almost pre-enlightenment mind set where religion and the state is one, and the state is in the business of enforcing religious doctrine. Isn’t it reasonable to wonder if a similar “enlightenment” might be needed in that region? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/10 "2012-04-25T22:08:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP raises a question many of us have wondered about. Much of the Muslim world in the MENA region remains stuck in an almost pre-enlightenment mind set where religion and the state is one, and the state is in the business of enforcing religious doctrine. Isn’t it reasonable to wonder if a similar “enlightenment” might be needed in that region? Problem is, church-state separation is perfectly compatible with Christianity, which got its start as an illegal underground religion anyway; but it is not so doctrinally or traditionally compatible with Islam, which, wherever established as a majority faith or as a predominant (conquerors’) faith, has ruled politically from day one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/11 "2012-04-25T22:12:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Problem is, church-state separation is perfectly compatible with Christianity, which got its start as an illegal underground religion anyway; but it is not so doctrinally compatible with Islam, which, where established, has ruled politically from day one. Not really. It may look that way in hindsight, post-enlightenment, but Christianity had a 1000+ year run at being intertwined with the rulers and the ruling of Europe. And not just the RCC, but the early Protestant Monarchs as well. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/12 "2012-04-25T22:13:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. Pre-enlightenment we (the west) were burning witches at the stake. Women had few, if any, rights and there was no separation of church and state. It sounds like you think the US is a theocracy, but let’s not pretend the US = Saudi Arabia or Iran No, I don’t, but I think there are a lot of shades of gray between a theocracy and a totally secular government, or a government that is openly hostile to religion. I don’t think it’s binary. And whether religion influences a culture or a government are, of course, different things. For example, in the UK, there is an officially established church. But there are no laws against not belonging to that church, and people who don’t belong to it can be elected to national offices. In the US, there is no officially established church, and there is in fact a rule in the Constitution against having any such church. But most people would say that an openly atheist candidate would have little or no chance of being elected to a national office. In Italy, 90+ percent of people self-identify as Catholic. It would be hard to say the Catholic religion has no influence on the Italian culture. In Germany, some religious groups get church taxes collected for them by the government. Would you say that religion has lost its influence over the culture or government of any of those countries? You really could argue either way. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/13 "2012-04-25T22:19:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Much of the Muslim world in the MENA region remains stuck in an almost pre-enlightenment mind set where religion and the state is one, and the state is in the business of enforcing religious doctrine. Isn’t it reasonable to wonder if a similar “enlightenment” might be needed in that region? Define “much of the Muslim world”. Turkey and Morocco are pretty secular, and Egypt and Libya haven’t had much religion in government for a long time (though it remains to be seen if that’ll still apply in a few years), and from what I’ve seen of the king of Jordan on TV he’s a pretty liberal, westernized fellow. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not necessarily representative of all of Islamdom. The argument could be made that almost all majority-Muslim countries incorporate elements of Muslim doctrine into law, but the same can be said of majority-Christian countries (as the long battle for LBGT rights, even in secularized European nations like the UK, has demonstrated). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/14 "2012-04-25T22:20:52Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > No, I don’t, but I think there are a lot of shades of gray between a theocracy and a totally secular government, or a government that is openly hostile to religion. I don’t think it’s binary. And whether religion influences a culture or a government are, of course, different things. > > For example, in the UK, there is an officially established church. But there are no laws against not belonging to that church, and people who don’t belong to it can be elected to national offices. > > In the US, there is no officially established church, and there is in fact a rule in the Constitution against having any such church. But most people would say that an openly atheist candidate would have little or no chance of being elected to a national office. > > In Italy, 90+ percent of people self-identify as Catholic. It would be hard to say the Catholic religion has no influence on the Italian culture. > > In Germany, some religious groups get church taxes collected for them by the government. > > Would you say that religion has lost its influence over the culture or government of any of those countries? You really could argue either way. I don’t see anything in the statement in the OP (emphasis added) to disagree with: “…the influence of religion on the Western World gradually have perished / have been perishing.” Whereas, in much of the MENA and adjacent Moslem areas, the opposite is happening. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/15 "2012-04-25T22:38:14Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > **Will Muslim World have to cope with humanism and rationalism?** Nah. _Disney_ World on the other hand is a big problem… I can see the advertising: _Why do the roller coasters at Muslim World all face Mecca? Because you’ll want to pray when you get off!_ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/16 "2012-04-25T22:40:25Z")
Sadly, a clash of civilizations seems inevitable. Between the one most of us live in, and the barbaric one of radical Islam. That clash will either happen within Islam, as sane heads take the reins of the religion, or writ large. Of course, this could all be averted by Muhammed summoning a magical mighty rain that washes away Sharia Law as practiced by the least enlightened and the ignorant, stale, stagnant 1,400 hundred year-old thinking that justifies it. But I’m not placing my money on that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/17 "2012-04-25T22:45:51Z")
The Muslim world had the misfortune to sit smack-dab on top of a huge reservoir of oil. Ever since the Renaissance, if a country wants to be rich and powerful it needs to at least pay lip-service to secular values and rationalism. Theocracies are not good at building up markets and industrial infrastructure. They can’t compete on the modern world stage with secular nations. The tremendous windfall of the Middle East petroleum reserves has sheltered a lot of Muslim countries from this harsh reality. Saudi Arabia can purchase the perks of modern industrialized society without having to make the social accommodations that make such a society sustainable. At some point the oil will run out. The parts of the Muslim world that can make the shift to enlightened secularism will grow and prosper (some already have), while the parts that can’t will decline into poverty and oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/18 "2012-04-25T22:51:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nah. _Disney_ World on the other hand is a big problem… > I can see the advertising: _Why do the roller coasters at Muslim World all face Mecca? Because you’ll want to pray when you get off!_ Are you being sarcastic? Are you mocking my question? Would it be better if you explained why the question was unreasonable/stupid/no-sense/or whatever instead of being sarcastic or mocking it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/19 "2012-04-25T22:53:27Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > Are you being sarcastic? Are you mocking my question? It’s called humor. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/20 "2012-04-25T22:57:14Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The Muslim world had the misfortune to sit smack-dab on top of a huge reservoir of oil. > > Ever since the Renaissance, if a country wants to be rich and powerful it needs to at least pay lip-service to secular values and rationalism. Theocracies are not good at building up markets and industrial infrastructure. They can’t compete on the modern world stage with secular nations. > > The tremendous windfall of the Middle East petroleum reserves has sheltered a lot of Muslim countries from this harsh reality. Saudi Arabia can purchase the perks of modern industrialized society without having to make the social accommodations that make such a society sustainable. > > At some point the oil will run out. The parts of the Muslim world that can make the shift to enlightened secularism will grow and prosper (some already have), while the parts that can’t will decline into poverty and oblivion. I wish I could be that optimistic. I don’t see Pakistan vanishing into oblivion anytime soon. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943.md?page=2)