# Will Muslim World have to cope with humanism and rationalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943 "2012-04-25T19:17:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/21 "2012-04-25T22:59:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Define “much of the Muslim world”. Turkey and Morocco are pretty secular, and Egypt and Libya haven’t had much religion in government for a long time (though it remains to be seen if that’ll still apply in a few years), and from what I’ve seen of the king of Jordan on TV he’s a pretty liberal, westernized fellow. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not necessarily representative of all of Islamdom. The argument could be made that almost all majority-Muslim countries incorporate elements of Muslim doctrine into law, but the same can be said of majority-Christian countries (as the long battle for LBGT rights, even in secularized European nations like the UK, has demonstrated). Turkey is secular but people are predominantly Muslim. Therefore law enforcement and ruling people are Muslim. They can control most things for their own sake. Let’s say you stated you are an atheist openly or you criticized Islam openly, then you can be charged and punished by the law for that you disturbed the state of being in peace of the country. I recommend you not to trust the etiquette of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/22 "2012-04-25T23:00:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s called humor. Oh really :eek: You are admitting you are sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/23 "2012-04-25T23:03:27Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > Oh really :eek: You are admitting you are sarcastic? :dubious: Um, yeah. Like the vast majority of humanity, I occasionally use sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/24 "2012-04-25T23:05:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: Um, yeah. Like the vast majority of humanity, I occasionally use sarcasm. How do you that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/25 "2012-04-25T23:10:08Z")
He uses a Sacasmotron, just like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/26 "2012-04-26T00:04:16Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Ever since the Renaissance, if a country wants to be rich and powerful it needs to at least pay lip-service to secular values and rationalism. Nevertheless, a **lot** of rulers in that time have tried to swim against that current, in varying other directions, and they never seem to learn from the others’ failures. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/27 "2012-04-26T01:08:46Z")
[QUOTE= Otkakönmişkılıç] How do you that? [/QUOTE] The whole that? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/28 "2012-04-26T01:21:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Problem is, church-state separation is perfectly compatible with Christianity, which got its start as an illegal underground religion anyway; but it is not so doctrinally or traditionally compatible with Islam, which, wherever established as a majority faith or as a predominant (conquerors’) faith, has ruled politically from day one. Since religion is just something a bunch of people made up, it generally does whatever it takes to serve those people’s purposes. Doctrine has never once kept people from picking and choosing whatever parts or the religion suit their needs at the time. Radical Islam in the form we see now is actually a pretty new thing,and is shaped by entirely modern forces. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/29 "2012-04-26T01:49:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Since religion is just something a bunch of people made up, it generally does whatever it takes to serve those people’s purposes. Good point. It’s a type of evolution. The stuff that doesn’t work dies off, and the stuff that does work proliferates. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/30 "2012-04-26T05:53:16Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > people who don’t belong to it can be elected to national offices. However, there’s still a religious test applied where the PM cannot be a Catholic. Tony Blair made no attempt to reveal it despite being a crypto-Catholic. No such thing in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/31 "2012-04-26T06:22:09Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > However, there’s still a religious test applied where the PM cannot be a Catholic. Tony Blair made no attempt to reveal it despite being a crypto-Catholic. No such thing in the US. Yeah, _sure_ there isn’t. There’s no way that an atheist is going to be President, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/32 "2012-04-26T06:50:50Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > \*_Catholicism and Protestantism had to cope with humanism and rationalism for hundreds of years. Thus the influence of religion on the Western World gradually have perished / have been perishing._ > > When the statement above is taken into account as true, we might also say one day Muslim World have to cope with humanism and rationalism, I guess. So, How is the impact of religion on Muslim World perish? How is he Renaissance of Muslim World going to be? It is, and has for some time, already been happening. It is the reason behind all the bullshit with Islamism, and etc., when a part of the population, mostly those that benefit from the existing order of things, have their knickers in a bunch over the changes. But the changes are inevitable. It’s the Borg. Resistance is futile. A big part of the way it plays out is that modernism, humanism, and rationalism is equated with the West (and by proxy, if your mind is set in religions ways, by Christianity), and so you have things like airplanes flying into skyscrapers, and Islamist railing against the Eurovision, calling for the [blood of European scum to be shed by the will of Allah](http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/music/islamic-terrorists-issue-threat-against-jedward-ahead-of-eurovision-3080269.html), and other fun stuff. But off they go, to have their heads chopped off by the march of history. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/33 "2012-04-26T12:48:34Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > Turkey is secular but people are predominantly Muslim. Therefore law enforcement and ruling people are Muslim. They can control most things for their own sake. Substitute “Christian” for “Muslim”, and that’s true of a lot of countries in the western world. Most law enforcement officers in the US are Christian. It would be difficult for a non-Christian to get elected as President in the US. How is this different from the situation in Turkey? If more than 90% of Italians are Catholic, I’d bet most police officers and most holders of national office in Italy are Catholic. Again, how is this different from Turkey? ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/34 "2012-04-26T13:02:25Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Substitute “Christian” for “Muslim”, and that’s true of a lot of countries in the western world. Most law enforcement officers in the US are Christian. It would be difficult for a non-Christian to get elected as President in the US. How is this different from the situation in Turkey? > > If more than 90% of Italians are Catholic, I’d bet most police officers and most holders of national office in Italy are Catholic. Again, how is this different from Turkey? It is different because in Italy there are no powerful religious groups, parties (like AKP in Turkey), and orders which aim to change the secularism and expose their sick, anti-humanist, and anti-Western on society as in Turkey. To mention again, they are able to find support from public and pretty powerful. Moreover, Muslim people in Turkey are far more conservative than a Catholic people in Italy. Not to mention Muslim ones tend to impose their religion on you. ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/35 "2012-04-26T13:05:10Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > The whole that? What I mean by > [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > How do you that? is that: “How do you know that?” ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/36 "2012-04-26T13:25:01Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > It is different because in Italy there are no powerful religious groups, parties (like AKP in Turkey), and orders which aim to change the secularism and expose their sick, anti-humanist, and anti-Western on society as in Turkey. To mention again, they are able to find support from public and pretty powerful. > > Moreover, Muslim people in Turkey are far more conservative than a Catholic people in Italy. Not to mention Muslim ones tend to impose their religion on you. But we _do_ have people in the US who are doing that kind of thing. We had until recently a contender for the presidential nomination of a major party who wanted to allow states to outlaw birth control. Obviously, nobody except Rick Santorum knows exactly why he thinks that, but it’s not implausible to think that it has something to do with his Catholic faith. We have a likely nominee by the same major party who is a member of a religion that does impose itself on others. You can’t argue that Mormons don’t try to convert others to their religion. They’re famous for their missionaries. They influenced a vote in California to ban same-sex marriage. How is that different from what Muslims in Turkey do? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/37 "2012-04-26T13:31:46Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > It is different because in Italy there are no powerful religious groups, parties (like AKP in Turkey), and orders which aim to change the secularism and expose their sick, anti-humanist, and anti-Western on society as in Turkey. The Vatican comes to mind. Except for the “anti Western” part, and as far as I’m concerned a Western theocracy is no better than any other kind of theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Otkakonmiskilic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Otkakonmiskilic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otkakonmiskilic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/38 "2012-04-26T13:37:25Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > How is that different from what Muslims in Turkey do? Worse. Much worse. I am tired of explaining it to people who don’t live in this country. If you think it is no worse, come here and live for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/39 "2012-04-26T13:58:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP raises a question many of us have wondered about. Much of the Muslim world in the MENA region remains stuck in an almost pre-enlightenment mind set where religion and the state is one, and the state is in the business of enforcing religious doctrine. Isn’t it reasonable to wonder if a similar “enlightenment” might be needed in that region? Well, what do you expect? Whether you like Christianity or not, there’s a HUGE difference between Christian doctrine and Muslim doctrine in this respect: from the very beginning, “render unto Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God’s” was a key Christian teaching. Jesus, and his followers (including St. Paul) ASSUMED from the very beginning that they would always be living under the rule of secular authorities. Jesus’ teachings don’t provide any kind of basis for governance of a community, let alone a nation-state, and they were never supposed to. To Christians, religion and government were always assumed to be two entirely separate entities. Sharia is different- it WAS intended to cover every aspect of human life, and was supposed to replace secular governmnet… or at least to render it unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943/40 "2012-04-26T14:15:13Z")
> [@Otkakonmiskilic](#): > > Worse. Much worse. I am tired of explaining it to people who don’t live in this country. If you think it is no worse, come here and live for a few years. But if you’re not going to explain it to us, or give us concrete examples, we’re going to have a hard time debating you on it. > [@astorian](#): > > Whether you like Christianity or not, there’s a HUGE difference between Christian doctrine and Muslim doctrine in this respect: from the very beginning, “render unto Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God’s” was a key Christian teaching. Jesus, and his followers (including St. Paul) ASSUMED from the very beginning that they would always be living under the rule of secular authorities. > > Jesus’ teachings don’t provide any kind of basis for governance of a community, let alone a nation-state, and they were never supposed to. To Christians, religion and government were always assumed to be two entirely separate entities. > > Sharia is different- it WAS intended to cover every aspect of human life, and was supposed to replace secular governmnet… or at least to render it unnecessary. Jewish law was also intended to cover every aspect of human life. We’ve managed to adapt it to situations where we’re living under secular law. People have used Christian teachings as the basis for governments. People do attempt to get laws based on Christian teachings into secular law (see: laws against homosexuality and same-sex marriage- every secular justification of this that I’ve seen has looked pretty flimsy). Muslims do live in societies where sharia is not the law of the land. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-muslim-world-have-to-cope-with-humanism-and-rationalism/619943.md?page=3)