# Will Obama choose unity over justice regarding Bush? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637 "2009-01-10T04:40:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/41 "2009-01-10T22:07:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Exactly. The message being sent to future Republican Presidents is that they might as well grab for all the power and profit they can, trample any right they feel like because the Democrats will ALWAYS cave in and suck up to them. That there is NO consequences to their actions. It’s a major reason why America is becoming ever more corrupt and fascistic; it’s a major reason why I have no long term hope for this country. That’s the same message they’ve been getting for the last 5 years from the Democrats. Can’t really put this all on Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/42 "2009-01-10T22:08:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So much the better! Let **every** administration make all its decisions aware of the threat of being investigated/prosecuted by the next one! Can you think of a better way to keep them honest? It worked so well for the Romans! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/43 "2009-01-10T22:16:46Z")
From [_The Land Beyond the Blow,_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13541/13541-8.txt) by Ambrose Bierce: > [@](#): > > Arriving at the capital of the country after many incredible adventures, I was promptly arrested by the police and taken before the Jumjum. He was an exceedingly affable person, and held office by appointment, “for life or fitness,” as their laws express it. With one necessary exception all offices are appointive and the tenure of all except that is the same. The Panjandrum, or, as we should call him, King, is elected for a term of ten years, at the expiration of which he is shot. It is held that any man who has been so long in high authority will have committed enough sins and blunders to deserve death, even if none can be specifically proved. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/44 "2009-01-10T23:45:31Z")
> [@Bender44](#): > > The current legal system \*\*can \*\*do that, but the courts will more likely than not refuse to hear the case. Political question doctrine and what not. > > Which also brings us back to impeachment. What’s the point of impeaching Bush _after he leaves office_? All the Senate could do is; remove him from office (a moot point), or ban him from ever holding a federal office again. He’s already ineligible for a third term (Praise be unto the 22nd Amendment, may it never be repealed) and I highly doubt he’s ever going to run for Congress. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/45 "2009-01-11T00:00:30Z")
He could be appointed to the Supreme Court! ---
**Author:** ![JoeSki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b487fb/32.png) [@JoeSki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeSki)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/46 "2009-01-11T00:34:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From [_The Land Beyond the Blow,_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13541/13541-8.txt) by Ambrose Bierce: I’ve considered this quote you mentioned a bit in regards to our country. I like the idea, but can’t but help think that it would make the White House appealing to only radicals and fundamentalists. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/47 "2009-01-11T01:18:12Z")
> [@JoeSki](#): > > I’ve considered this quote you mentioned a bit in regards to our country. I like the idea, but can’t but help think that it would make the White House appealing to only radicals and fundamentalists. Furthermore, there’s not much incentive to be honest while in office if you know you’ll be put to death regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/48 "2009-01-11T01:39:37Z")
> [@Ersatz\_Shmoe](#): > > [The vice-president admitted that waterboarding was officially signed off on by the White House](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003323549_cheney26.html). Not in the article you linked, he didn’t. > [@](#): > > Even if the president and vice president are not accountable for authorizing torture, "[The New York Times reported on July 11, 2008](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/washington/11detain.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin), that ‘Red Cross investigators concluded last year in a secret report that the Central Intelligence Agency’s interrogation methods for high-level Qaeda prisoners constituted torture and could make the Bush administration officials who approved them guilty of war crimes.’ Refresh my memory. What exactly is the extent of the Red Cross authority to bring criminal charges? > [@](#): > > Even if we’re not talking about impeaching Bush, there should be investigations, and if the evidence is found, prosecutions. This is necessary in a state governed by the rule of law. You’ve yet to demonstrate any reasonable basis for investigations. Seems like you’d prefer to just skip the formalities, and jump straight to sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/49 "2009-01-11T02:38:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I can. > > Avoiding a full blown depression, minimizing a serious recession, providing for at least near universal health care, doing something significant about global warming, moving towards more energy independence, improving our educational capabilities and outcomes, getting out of Iraq without causing even more harm as we go, respecting the privacy rights of our citizens, providing security for our citizens, preventing future abuses and crimes by public officials … all of them and more. And I disagree with any of these things (I had the economical and social issues in mind when I wrote my post) except the last one (preventing future abuse) being as important. We can’t allow public authorities to circumvent the law or attack our liberties. We can’t let their criminal activities go unpunished, if we don’t want to live in an elective dictatorship. You’re close to saying : as long as we’re prosperous, the law of the land can take a backseat. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/50 "2009-01-11T02:51:44Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Say what? Who said civil war? What I mean is that this kind of commissions is useful either when the crimes were committed on such a scale and/or for so long that prosecuting them all is a pipe dream or when the country is so unstable and divided that going after the culprits would seriously threaten its stability. Since the USA isn’t in such a situation, there’s no need for a reconciliation commission to replace actual prosecution of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/51 "2009-01-11T02:57:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Very well said. My heart goes out to him for presiding, as he will, over the biggest bunch of whiners, cry babies, and spoiled brats the nation has ever seen. I’m glad he has such a good sense of humor, and is a good dad. Honestly, I’m completely amazed by your discourse about Mr Obama. For some time, you’ve been sounding as if he had either paid you a huge amount of money specifically to spread his word on this board or hypnotized you. 😕 Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/52 "2009-01-11T03:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=Ersatz Shmoe;10675168That’s one issue, without going into the fact that bypassing the FISA court was a violation of the 4th Amendment, holding prisoners of war at Gitmo without the right to a trial or having a lawyer present is at least in violation of the principle of the 5th and 6th Amendments (legal evasiveness notwithstanding), and your standard, garden variety corruption with respect to granting government contracts to cronies with no oversight, etc. [/QUOTE] Remind me – what’s the penalty for violation of the Fourth Amendment? How many years in prison is that again? And where, precisely, is that penalty laid out? Or did you just want to make up the penalty as we go? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/53 "2009-01-11T03:26:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What I mean is that this kind of commissions is useful either when the crimes were committed on such a scale and/or for so long that prosecuting them all is a pipe dream or when the country is so unstable and divided that going after the culprits would seriously threaten its stability. > > Since the USA isn’t in such a situation, there’s no need for a reconciliation commission to replace actual prosecution of crimes. And I’d counter that the US is indeed in this situation, at least your first description. The crimes have been on such a large scale that prosecuting them is indeed impractical. There seems to be little political will to even investigate the scope of the civil rights crimes. There are “cooler heads” in this very thread that counsel this could never happen. A truth commission defuses much of this problem, once all the parties understand the intent: the goal is the truth of what actually happened, so light can be projected on these crimes, and historical revisionism cannot (or hopefully would not) happen. Witnesses are given blanket immunity to encourage bad actors to come clean. I submit this is an important thing to have happen: shed light on the darkness of these illegal acts, so our country can finally know what occurred. The alternative is to probably never know what took place and have the memory of these crimes disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/54 "2009-01-11T07:34:13Z")
The purpose of a government is to actually govern the country not to waste its time dividing up into two teams and competing against itself. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/55 "2009-01-11T07:34:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Remind me – what’s the penalty for violation of the Fourth Amendment? How many years in prison is that again? > > And where, precisely, is that penalty laid out? > > Or did you just want to make up the penalty as we go? The penalty is that the Constitution falls into disrespect. > [@](#): > > Sir Thomas More: Go he should, if he were the Devil, until he broke the law. > > William Roper: Now you give the Devil benefit of law! > > Sir Thomas More: Yes, what would you do? > > William Roper: Cut a road through the law to get after the Devil? Yes. I’d cut down every law in England to do that. > > Sir Thomas More: And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned on you…where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast…Man’s laws, not God’s, and if you cut them down…and you’re just the man to do it…do you really think you could stand upright in the wind that would blow then? > > Yes. I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety’s sake. If I could write anywhere near as good an argument, I would not quote _A Man for All Seasons_. But I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/56 "2009-01-11T07:44:25Z")
I’d rather see Obama actually accomplish some of the things on his agenda rather than wasting his time and political capital trying to “bring the Bush administration to justice.” ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/57 "2009-01-11T07:51:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The penalty is that the Constitution falls into disrespect. Which carries a punishment of 5-20? Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/58 "2009-01-11T13:44:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Honestly, I’m completely amazed by your discourse about Mr Obama. For some time, you’ve been sounding as if he had either paid you a huge amount of money specifically to spread his word on this board or hypnotized you. Evidently, you’ve missed some of my postings, like [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10669449&postcount=27) for example, where I allow for a metaphysical possibility that Obama’s position on the DTV issue may not be optimal. I think the only difference between my posts and the posts of others is that my criticisms are not unfair, unfounded, or uninformed. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/59 "2009-01-11T14:41:03Z")
“Will Obama choose unity over justice…?” Both are unattainable in an absolute sense, and they are mutually unsupportable. And O is a pragmatist. We can only hope he gives appropriate weight to those ideals he’s going to talk about in his inaugural address. If he does, he’ll sacrifice some unity to repudiate a few of the activities of the outgoing administration which are antithetical to them. Maybe he can do that without prosecutions, and my bet is if he takes the path of repudiation, he’ll try to avoid unnecessary recrimination. Which means, depending on how you look at it, we’ll either get raisins in our thin gruel, or we’ll have to have fewer sprinkles on our ice cream than we’d like. > [@](#): > > _( **Liberal** )_: > …where I allow for a metaphysical possibility that Obama’s position on the DTV issue may not be optimal… Cool. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637/60 "2009-01-11T18:47:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, he’s not gonna do it. Even if it’s the right thing, the precedent is questionable and particularly at this time, it’s not something he’s going to spend a lot of energy on - and that’s what it would require. On top of all that, if he did that, a Republican Congress or future president would do the same thing to him and he’s not going to want that. If Obama did the things this administration is believed to have done, I would be the first in line agreeing with the Republicans to investigate him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-obama-choose-unity-over-justice-regarding-bush/480637.md?page=4)