# Will passenger airships ever come back? Or freight airships? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361 "2004-09-27T22:05:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/21 "2004-09-28T00:35:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They don’t use hydrogren for lift any more, only helium, which is a “noble gas” and can’t burn. And the engines would be, you know, just engines – maybe fueled by liquid propane as **Bosda** suggested, but in any case not by anything extraordinarily dangerous. So why would it explode? No, I suggested that the liquid propane be used to run an electrical generator. The voltage runs the motors that drive the propellors. This approach keeps the fuel in a pod outside the hull, for peace of mind. Power can be transmitted by wire, which is especially helpful if we go the tilt rotor approach. Fly by wire control. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/22 "2004-09-28T00:46:47Z")
The Army was/is funding a feasibility study by a German company, looking into building massive blimps that could transport several tanks or whatnot. The wisdom of paying the Hun to design his dread air-ships again aside, I believe the idea was shown to be unpracticle at todays level of technology (the cost of the materials used to make the skin, or something like that). I’ll have to google for details. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/23 "2004-09-28T01:17:19Z")
Apparently Zeppelin NT is running passenger flights – here’s a page with a photo gallery of modern airships: [http://www.modern-airships.info/en/home.html](http://www.modern-airships.info/en/home.html) See also [http://www.myairship.com/](http://www.myairship.com/) [http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airship.html](http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airship.html), and [http://www.aht.ndirect.co.uk/](http://www.aht.ndirect.co.uk/). And here’s a company called 21st Century Airships, Inc. Their ships, notably, are spherical, not cigar-shaped: [http://www.21stcenturyairships.com/](http://www.21stcenturyairships.com/) I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/24 "2004-09-28T02:18:08Z")
For a dissentiing view, [HERE’S](http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-03j.html) a pessimistic article about the feasibility of airships. (Although the author is an infamous “naysayer” for what it’s worth.) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/25 "2004-09-28T03:07:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What advantage would that offer over a helium-filled airship? Hydrogen is fine. The “Hindenburg hydrogen-fire” thing is a recently debunked myth. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/26 "2004-09-28T03:09:42Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Hydrogen is fine. The “Hindenburg hydrogen-fire” thing is a recently debunked myth. How debunked? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/27 "2004-09-28T03:21:12Z")
Oh come on now, you can google. Briefly, the pulverised aluminium based paints used on the balloon acted as accelerants on an electrical fire. I don’t recall clearly but the fire may have been caused by static electricity or lightening, also aggravated by those paints. That said, I think the reputation of the Hindenburg is the single impediment any such project faces. Not entirely rational, but real. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/28 "2004-09-28T03:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > They don’t use hydrogren for lift any more, only helium, which is a “noble gas” and can’t burn. And the engines would be, you know, just engines – maybe fueled by liquid propane as Bosda suggested, but in any case not by anything extraordinarily dangerous. So why would it explode? If Sevastopol put a suitcase nuke on it. JUST joking. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/29 "2004-09-28T03:33:23Z")
Hilarious, So, the things I do… [Hindenburg and Hydrogen](http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1052864.htm) > [@](#): > > …This bad reputation of hydrogen still bothers car manufacturers today, as they explore the use of hydrogen as a safe, non-polluting alternative to fossil fuels for powering cars. But it turns out that the extreme flammability of hydrogen is a mythconception… > > As the Hindenburg came in to Lakehurst on May 6, 1937, there was a storm brewing, and so there was much static electricity in the air - which charged up the aircraft. When the crew dropped the mooring ropes down to the ground, the static electricity was earthed, which set off sparks on the Hindenburg. > > The Hindenburg was covered with cotton fabric, that had to be waterproof. So it had been swabbed with cellulose acetate (which happened to be very inflammable) that was then covered with aluminium powder (which is used as rocket fuel to propel the Space Shuttle into orbit). Indeed, the aluminium powder was in tiny flakes, which made them very susceptible to sparking. It was inevitable that a charged atmosphere would ignite the flammable skin. > > In all of this, the hydrogen was innocent… ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/30 "2004-09-28T03:58:30Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > (Can anyone find a figure for the total weight of the load on a typical N American freight train?) A typical American coal unit train, which is loaded about as heavy as one can get, has 100-115 cars of about 100-110 (short) tons each. This varies due to a variety of factors on each train, of course. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/31 "2004-09-28T11:53:38Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > A typical American coal unit train, which is loaded about as heavy as one can get, has 100-115 cars of about 100-110 (short) tons each. This varies due to a variety of factors on each train, of course. So, about 20 million pounds? Dang. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/32 "2004-09-28T12:36:10Z")
This discussion is all futile. I remember well the articles in **Popular Science** back in the '60s and early '70s about how the future of industrial aviation would all be lighter-than-air craft of one sort or another. As we all know, a glowing write-up about a future technology in PS is the **Kiss of Death**. Remember the Rotomat? Exoskeletons? Flying cars? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/33 "2004-09-28T13:00:24Z")
If airships come back, will GIANT ROBOTS invade Manhattan? Check out “AIR COMMANDER and The World of Tomorrow”-GREAT flick! ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/34 "2004-09-28T13:42:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, separate internal chambers did a lot for the Titanic . . . how long did it take for the titanic to sink, though? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/35 "2004-09-28T14:22:02Z")
I love the Hindenberg and have a big, beautiful book about it, but the passenger airship (on that scale) will never come back. In the 20s and 30s, there was a market for such ships: wealthy people who wanted to get somewhere quick. The standard mode of travel across the oceans was, of course, the steamship. Now the standard is the airliner, which can get you nearly anywhere within a day, usually a good deal sooner. So the only thing that’s left is the cruise idea. Of course, that would have to compete with ocean cruises. Now a first-class transoceanic flights costs more than $10k round trip; how much would an airship cruise cost? $20k? $50k? Still, the very rich might be willing to pay that. But the Hindenberg could only carry 50 persons transatlantic yet had a crew of 61. [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster) As for profitability, my back-of-envelope goes like this. [This](http://www.iht.com/IHT/MR/00/mr051700.html) has some helpful figures. The cost of developing a large aircraft is in the $10 billion + area. But let’s say we can build and develop one craft for a cool $1B (about 5 times the price of a loaded 747). Let’s say the company can squeeze $25k profit out of each passenger, and let’s say that covers all the maintenance, G&A, everything. That requires 40,000 passengers to break even. At 75 persons per flight (25 better than the Hindenberg) and 1 flight a week (for a one-week cruise), that gives us a payback period of 10 years. No one in Person’s right mind would make such an investment. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/36 "2004-09-28T15:15:38Z")
A while ago there was a German company, Cargolifter, that planned to build a large transport airship. [http://travel.howstuffworks.com/cargolifter.htm](http://travel.howstuffworks.com/cargolifter.htm) Probably their most important selling point was that current heavy load transports (of individual heavy items, 100 tons+) are only as fast as a pedestrian over long distances and they offered significant advantages for that niche. It was never really intended for ordinary container cargo. They are bankrupt now, but at the time they were supported by possible industrial clients like Siemens. Btw they really built that hangar, the largest self-supporting hall in the world and it is currently being converted into a “Tropical Island” theme park. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/37 "2004-09-28T16:06:53Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Hilarious, > > So, the things I do… [Hindenburg and Hydrogen](http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1052864.htm) So, if the Hindenburg had been filled with helium, it still would have exploded, because of the flammable stuff on the skin of the gasbag? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/38 "2004-09-28T16:26:40Z")
> [@](#): > > A typical American coal unit train, which is loaded about as heavy as one can get, has 100-115 cars of about 100-110 (short) tons each. This varies due to a variety of factors on each train, of course. Most ship cargo is now packed in containers, which are basically the equivalent of a frieght car. A typical cargo ship will carry 1600 containers; a large one might carry over 6000. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/39 "2004-09-28T16:50:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’d say that technologically there are no dealbreakers, and economically it would make sense to build them – but there’s still a lingering memory of the Hindenburg as nearly the sole public knowledge of zeppelins – And the Akron… And the Macon… And the Shenandoah… And the R-101… ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361/40 "2004-09-28T18:11:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > If airships come back, will GIANT ROBOTS invade Manhattan? Check out “AIR COMMANDER and The World of Tomorrow”-GREAT flick! That’s _Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow._ Duh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-ever-come-back-or-freight-airships/266361.md?page=3)