# Will Passenger AIRSHIPS Make A Comeback? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711 "2003-08-17T03:48:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Santos\_L\_Halper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/santos_l_halper/32/1_2.png) [@Santos\_L\_Halper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santos_L_Halper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/41 "2003-08-23T15:09:29Z")
Yeah, those damn _Waltons_! They’re always ruining everything! 🙂 **Curate** , Hindenburg’s pressure height was fourteen hundred meters. The Anaheim Blimp Company site says: “Our airships normally operate at around 1,500 to 3,000 feet. We can, however, go up to 8,000 but the payload is reduced.” You’re correct about the WW I zeppelins. Germany got into an arms race with Great Britain - the Brits developing fighter planes that could fly higher and higher to shoot down the zeps, and the Germans developing zeppelins that could cruise at higher and higher altitudes to avoid attack. They finally were flying bombing raids at over 20,000 feet, pretty impressive, especially with WW I technology. The book _The Airships Akron and Macon - flying aircraft carriers of the United States Navy_ covers the troubles the Akron had on one of her cross-country flights. The biggest problem (on top of an engine failure) was the fact that they were flying from west to east across the Rockies. Therefore they were trying to make it over the mountains near the beginning of the trip while they were still loaded down with a full fuel load. Another really good book is _the Golden Age of the Great Passenger Airships - Graf Zeppelin & Hindenburg_ by Harold Dick and Douglas Robinson. Dick was an engineer for Goodyear and spent five years working with the Zeppelin Company in Germany. He made 22 transatlantic flights in the airships and gives a great inside view of what they were like to fly on and how they operated. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/42 "2003-08-23T16:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*But we all saw the Hindenburg crash over and over on _The Waltons_. I bet if footage of the tragedy had never appeared on the show, a lot of us would know little or nothing abou it. \*\* Oh, I don’t know, they made a movie about it, starring George C. Scott and a bunch of other “no name” actors. AMC’s currently showing the film, so I have to say the odds of _The Waltons_ being to blame are pretty slim. ---
**Author:** ![Curate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Curate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curate)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/43 "2003-08-23T18:45:16Z")
Thanks, Santos, for reminding me of the details of the Akron’s difficulties with the Rocky Mountains. I was in a game store a few months back that had a game based on a possible war with Japan being fought in the 30’s, and I wondered if it included the possible use of Zeppelins as scouts and what kind of advantage, if any, their use might have provided. I seem to recall that there was only one occasion when the navy conducted war games in which the Macon or the Akron (I can’t remember which) and their attendant airplanes were actually used as intended, but that the experiment showed some promise. I’m going to look for the books that have been mentioned. When I was in the sixth grade I was able to take a ride on one of the Goodyear blimps in Houston, and I’ve been fascinated ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Santos\_L\_Halper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/santos_l_halper/32/1_2.png) [@Santos\_L\_Halper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santos_L_Halper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/44 "2003-08-23T22:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Curate \* > \*\*I’m going to look for the books that have been mentioned. When I was in the sixth grade I was able to take a ride on one of the Goodyear blimps in Houston, and I’ve been fascinated ever since. \*\* Lucky bastard. 🙂 I plan to keep pestering the two campanies mentioned above to find out when rides will be available. I highly recommend the Akron & Macon book (it’s by Richard K. Smith). It gives a lot of info about the unfortunately short life of the airships as well as a lot of detail about the operation of the fighter planes they carried and routinely launched and recovered. I also recommend _Graf Zeppelin and Hindenburg_ as already mentioned. Another good one is _Blimps & U-Boats_ by J. Gordon Vaeth. During WW II the US Navy operated over 150 blimps as anti-submarine aircraft patrolling the coastline and protecting shipping convoys. IIRC, not a single ship was lost while under blimp protection. Eric ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/45 "2003-08-23T22:18:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Oh, I don’t know, they made a movie about it, starring George C. Scott and a bunch of other “no name” actors. AMC’s currently showing the film, so I have to say the odds of _The Waltons_ being to blame are pretty slim. \*\* I’ll bet anything that more people saw the Waltons episode than have ever seen the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/46 "2003-08-23T22:30:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*I’ll bet anything that more people saw the Waltons episode than have ever seen the movie. \*\* Perhaps, but didn’t Led Zepplin (or some other rock band) use a shot of the _Hindenburg_ going up in flames? I know that I’ve seen _tons_ of images of the _Hindenburg_ going up and have _never_ seen _The Waltons_ episode you mention. (I quit watching after their house burned down.) ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/47 "2003-08-23T22:34:42Z")
Okay, but still! More people saw the TV show than the obscure movie. And more people saw the Led Zeppelin album cover (I believe it was LZ II) than saw the TV show. The show had authentic footage - John Boy was a newspaper reporter at the time, so it would have been quite late in the series’ run. He was “on location” in Lakehurst to cover the landing of the Hindenburg. And I gotta tell ya, it was some scary footage. Yeeck. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/48 "2003-08-23T22:50:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*And I gotta tell ya, it was some scary footage. Yeeck. \*\* Yup, and that’s why everytime a TV show discusses hydrogen, they _always_ break out the _Hindenburg_ footage. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/49 "2003-08-23T23:09:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*Given that The Germans ran their big airships on hydrogen for years (without an accident), what would be the objectoion to using hydrogen today? Hell, we use this gas to cool generators and tons of it are used daily by the semiconductor/chip industry. One question regarding Helium: I know the US Govt. maintains a helium separation plant in Amarillo, TX…what do we DO withall the helium we produce? I know it is used for low-temperature research and for high-cvacuum machines…but do we just throw a lot of it away? How much helium IS there anyway? \*\* Good question Some things come to mind Tig welding , can use helium as the inert gas , it was called heli-arc welding before tig. Good year itself , for its blimps, god knows how much those suckers vent, and have to be refilled. Other companies that operate blimps , Fuji ? Declan ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/50 "2003-08-23T23:16:41Z")
It seems hydrogen was not the culprit in the Hindenberg diaster but the aluminum oxide compounds used in the fabric covering of the ship. The compounds had a very similar chemical makeup to solid rocket fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/51 "2003-08-24T00:42:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icerigger \* > \*\*It seems hydrogen was not the culprit in the Hindenberg diaster but the aluminum oxide compounds used in the fabric covering of the ship. The compounds had a very similar chemical makeup to solid rocket fuel. \*\* Right. **But** , most people _think_ that it was the hydrogen which made it go kerblewie. One of the things that’s going to make hydrogen cars a tough sell to folks is called “the _Hindenburg_ effect,” i.e. hydrogen goes _boom_ in a rather spectacular fashion. So does gasolene, of course, but people are _used_ to being around gasolene, so much so, that they _don’t_ think about the fact that they’re loading an explosive into their car to make it go. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/52 "2003-08-24T00:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*So does gasolene, of course, but people are _used_ to being around gasolene, so much so, that they _don’t_ think about the fact that they’re loading an explosive into their car to make it go. \*\* Of course, you would think that all of those “no smoking” signs at the gas stations might give them pause. 🙂 Still, your point is well taken. When people see “hydrogen,” they think “explosive”; when they see “gasoline,” they think “fuel” - and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/53 "2003-08-24T01:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Of course, you would think that all of those “no smoking” signs at the gas stations might give them pause. 🙂 Still, your point is well taken. When people see “hydrogen,” they think “explosive”; when they see “gasoline,” they think “fuel” - and nothing more. \*\* Yup. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/54 "2003-08-24T02:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icerigger \* > **It seems hydrogen was not the culprit in the Hindenberg diaster but the aluminum oxide compounds used in the fabric covering of the ship.** That doesn’t mean hydrogen is perfectly safe! “It’s as safe as gasoline” isn’t saying much at all. There’s no doubt that a helium airship is safer than a hydrogen airship. Besides, the cost of helium is small compared to the cost of the hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/55 "2003-08-24T03:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scr4 \* > \*\*That doesn’t mean hydrogen is perfectly safe! “It’s as safe as gasoline” isn’t saying much at all. There’s no doubt that a helium airship is safer than a hydrogen airship. Besides, the cost of helium is small compared to the cost of the hardware. \*\* Speaking of which, I read once that commercial jets tires are inflated with helium since it’s lighter than air, and the cost of the helium is less than the amount of jet fuel needed were the tires to be filled with air. Anyone know if that’s true? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/56 "2003-08-24T03:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > I read once that commercial jets tires are inflated with helium since it’s lighter than air, and the cost of the helium is less than the amount of jet fuel needed were the tires to be filled with air. FWIW, I have a friend who flies 747s and says that the tires on his plane are filled with notrogen. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/57 "2003-08-24T03:19:53Z")
Make that “nitrogen”. ---
**Author:** ![Curate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Curate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curate)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/58 "2003-08-24T04:08:31Z")
I may be venturing into urban legend territory here, but back in the 70’s I had a subscription to Air Classics magazine and I seem to recall a story about the sub-hunting blimps of WWII. They did indeed have a very good record of safety, but I recall a mention in the story about one blimp that crashed after a patrol and was found to be without its crew. Parachutes were still aboard, life raft still in place, but no people. I also recall a reference to Goodyear’s recycling the gondola of that blimp for use in one of their company aircraft after the war, and that supposedly they went to some lengths to obscure which one of their blimps was using the “haunted” gondola. Keep in mind that the story must have been written during the 70’s obsession with the Bermuda Triangle. I can’t find any reference to it on the internet, but as long as we’re kicking around the hazards of lighter than air flight I think I’d rather take a chance with burning hydrogen than being unexpectedly squirted into an alternate dimension. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/59 "2003-08-24T04:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Speaking of which, I read once that commercial jets tires are inflated with helium since it’s lighter than air, and the cost of the helium is less than the amount of jet fuel needed were the tires to be filled with air. Anyone know if that’s true? \*\* Not sure if thats a good idea , if I recall helium expands above a certain altitude. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711/60 "2003-08-24T06:29:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*I know the US Govt. maintains a helium separation plant in Amarillo, TX. \*\* [Not any more…](http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/030200/bus_030200-37.shtml) > [@](#): > > \*\*The end creeps closer for government helium operations in the Texas Panhandle as officials prepare to auction about 95 percent of the remaining equipment, ranging from refining equipment to rail cars to office furniture. > > [snip] > > The General Services Administration auction is part of a closure that began in October 1996 when President Clinton signed a budget bill limiting the Interior Department, which, through the Bureau of Land Management, oversaw the Amarillo Helium Field Operations. > > Refining ended on April 1, 1998, and since then, a closure team has been preparing equipment and buildings for the March auction. > > After the auction, a staff of about 36 will work at the Cliffside Field operations, which will be used to store and sell the remaining government helium supply - about a 10-year supply when the closure move began in 1998. > \*\* [This site](http://www.nm.blm.gov/amfo/helium_facts.html) says surplus helium is stored underground: > [@](#): > > **The helium storage and transportation system consists of the storage reservoir in the Bush Dome, Cliffside Field, and a 425-mile pipeline system originating at Cliffside and ending near Bushton, Kansas. The pipeline connects ten privately owned crude helium plants and six privately owned helium purification plants to the Bush Dome at Cliffside Gas Field. Bush Dome currently contains about 36 Bcf of helium in 46 Bcf of stored crude helium and 209 Bcf of native gas. The stored crude is about 72 percent helium. About 3.4 billion cubic feet (Bcf) is stored for private industry.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passenger-airships-make-a-comeback/195711.md?page=4)