# Will passing tax reform actually help the gop **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 17, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886 "2017-11-17T18:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/101 "2018-01-11T06:15:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I gave several non-economic concerns, among them, terrorism. Do you remember the case of [the Uzbek immigrant that rented a truck from Home Depot and decided to run a bunch of people over in the name of ISIS / Allah](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/nyc-terrorist-attack/sayfullo-saipov-s-path-immigrant-trucker-accused-terrorist-n816331)? That’s one example of the sort of non-economic concerns conservatives have about poorly- or un-vetted immigrants. For short, you might call it one of “the problem[s] with immigration”. Those are legitimate concerns. But if conservatives were concerned about terrorism, they wouldn’t be applauding so loudly over calls to build a wall along the Mexican border. If they’re so worried about a poorly-vetted immigrant, they’d be calling for a better vetting process. If they’re worried about law and order, they’d be pushing for more prosecutions of those who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants. The steps they want to take don’t match the reasons you say they’re concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/102 "2018-01-11T07:26:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sinclair, _the largest TV broadcaster in the country, with 173 stations, reaching more than 1/3 of Americans_, is going to dump a whopping $9 million into the economy. > > And last month, I dumped a few pennies in a Salvation Army bucket. > > Chicken feed from Sinclair, and chicken feed from me. Pretty much the same, once you adjust for scale. > > And in a $20 trillion economy, both are a drop in the bucket. Also, unemployment is at something like a 15-20 year low and people think it’s the tax bill causing pay to rise? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/103 "2018-01-11T19:16:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > … If they’re worried about law and order, they’d be pushing for more prosecutions of those who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants. The steps they want to take don’t match the reasons you say they’re concerned. The timing was just so perfect, so I’ve got to ask: Is [this](https://apnews.com/cb0ef682ea534ff0b5d31e7c054a079e/APNewsBreak:-7-Eleven-probe-opens-new-front-on-immigration) the sort of “pushing for more prosecutions of those who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants” you were referring to? > [@](#): > > The employment audits and interviews with store workers could lead to criminal charges or fines. And they appeared to open a new front in Trump’s expansion of immigration enforcement, which has already brought a 40 percent increase in deportation arrests and pledges to spend billions of dollars on a border wall with Mexico. > > A top official at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said the audits were “the first of many” and “a harbinger of what’s to come” for employers. > > “This is what we’re gearing up for this year and what you’re going to see more and more of is these large-scale compliance inspections, just for starters,” said Derek Benner, acting head of ICE’s Homeland Security Investigations, which oversees cases against employers. > > “It’s not going to be limited to large companies or any particular industry — big, medium and small,” he said. > > After the inspections, officials plan to look at whether the cases warrant administrative action or criminal investigations, Benner told The Associated Press. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/104 "2018-01-11T19:48:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The timing was just so perfect, so I’ve got to ask: Is [this](https://apnews.com/cb0ef682ea534ff0b5d31e7c054a079e/APNewsBreak:-7-Eleven-probe-opens-new-front-on-immigration) the sort of “pushing for more prosecutions of those who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants” you were referring to? Yeah, I read about that, but you’re missing my point. I didn’t ask if it was happening, I asked where was the push among “law and order” conservatives to make it happen. Now that it has made the news, are conservatives speaking out in favor of locking up the store owners? From your link, there’s also this: > [@](#): > > President George W. Bush’s administration pursued high-profile criminal investigations against employers in its final years with dramatic pre-dawn shows of force and large numbers of worker arrests. In 2008, agents arrived by helicopter at the Agriprocessors meatpacking plant in Postville, Iowa, and detained nearly 400 workers. Last month, Trump commuted the 27-year prison sentence of Sholom Rubashkin, former chief executive of what was the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking operation. > > President Barack Obama’s administration more than doubled employer audits to more than 3,100 a year in 2013, shunning Bush’s flashier approach. John Sandweg, an acting ICE director under Obama, said significant fines instilled fear in employers and avoided draining resources from other enforcement priorities, which include child exploitation, human trafficking and money laundering. Where were the “law and order” conservatives while that was going on; did any of them condemn Trump for commuting the sentence of a criminal, or give kudos to Obama for going after more of them? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/105 "2018-01-11T20:05:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The timing was just so perfect, so I’ve got to ask: Is [this](https://apnews.com/cb0ef682ea534ff0b5d31e7c054a079e/APNewsBreak:-7-Eleven-probe-opens-new-front-on-immigration) the sort of “pushing for more prosecutions of those who break the law by hiring illegal immigrants” you were referring to? It is not like there were no raids on employers during the Obama administration, and before that, even. What happens is the workers get deported, and the employer gets fined. The fine is a cost of doing business, far less than the cost would have been to have hired legal workers in the first place, assuming that they could get enough legal workers at any reasonable wage. They did not indicate that they were really going to increase the penalties against employers who knowingly employee ineligible workers. I did find the begining > [@](#): > > Seven immigration agents filed into a 7-Eleven store before dawn Wednesday, waited for people to go through the checkout line and told arriving customers and a driver delivering beer to wait outside. A federal inspection was underway, they said. > > Within 20 minutes, they verified that the cashier had a valid green card and served notice on the owner to produce hiring records in three days that deal with employees’ immigration status. A bit disturbing, as they apparently shut down a store for 20 minutes in order to harass the employee who was working legally. Of course, giving trump credit on this is a touch of fake news, > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama’s administration more than doubled employer audits to more than 3,100 a year in 2013, shunning Bush’s flashier approach. John Sandweg, an acting ICE director under Obama, said significant fines instilled fear in employers and avoided draining resources from other enforcement priorities, which include child exploitation, human trafficking and money laundering. > > Wednesday’s audits arose from a 2013 investigation that resulted in charges against nine 7-Eleven franchisees and managers in New York and Virginia. Eight have pleaded guilty and were ordered to pay more than $2.6 million in back wages, and the ninth was arrested in November. So, trump is carrying on what Obama started? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/106 "2018-01-11T21:18:04Z")
I read that article with a bit of a jaundiced eye. 98 raids on 7-11’s netted 21 arrests, and I’ll bet none of them was one of the employers. Your tax dollars at work. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/107 "2018-01-12T03:10:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s a “major factor” in what you _imagine_ about the modern right. I’m less confident that your imagination reflects reality. Do you have any cites you’d like to offer? A Berkeley sociologist liberal couldn’t understand right wingers, so she went to the most conservative place she could think of, rural Louisiana to study the Tea Party. She interviewed hundreds of people over 5 years to understand their opinions and beliefs, which she put in a book called ‘strangers in their own land’. Here is the narrative she came up with that many Tea Partiers she interviewed agreed with. Relative deprivation abounds. > **[What a liberal sociologist learned from spending five years in Trump's America](https://www.vox.com/2016/9/6/12803636/arlie-hochschild-strangers-land-louisiana-trump)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... > [@](#): > > So the deep story I felt operating in Louisiana was this: Think of people waiting in a long line that stretches up a hill. And at the top of that is the American dream. And the people waiting in line felt like they’d worked extremely hard, sacrificed a lot, tried their best, and were waiting for something they deserved. And this line is increasingly not moving, or moving more slowly [i.e., as the economy stalls]. > > Then they see people cutting ahead of them in line. Immigrants, blacks, women, refugees, public sector workers. And even an oil-drenched brown pelican getting priority. In their view, people are cutting ahead unfairly. And then in this narrative, there is Barack Obama, to the side, the line supervisor who seems to be waving these people (and the pelican) ahead. So the government seemed to be on the side of the people who were cutting in line and pushing the people in line back. > > I went back with this story to a lot of the people that I’d talked to. I asked, is this the way you feel? And they said, “Yeah, you read my mind!” or, “Yeah, I live your narrative!” And this all becomes more acute as their place in line feels more vulnerable. There’s the offshoring of American jobs, automation that is now making even skilled jobs feel vulnerable. So when you add a cultural and demographic sense of loss and decline to a real economic threat, it becomes alarming. And the government doesn’t seem like it’s heard your distress call. This study looked into Trump voters and their motivations, it came up with 5 major motivations. One was relative deprivation. [https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750/html](https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750/html) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/108 "2018-01-12T03:12:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I read that article with a bit of a jaundiced eye. 98 raids on 7-11’s netted 21 arrests, and I’ll bet none of them was one of the employers. Your tax dollars at work. Why would they arrest the employers?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/109 "2018-01-12T03:27:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why would they arrest the employers?😕 I don’t know! Why DO we arrest people that break the law? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/110 "2018-01-12T03:31:40Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > I don’t know! Why DO we arrest people that break the law? They are only breaking the law if they hired them\* knowingly. \* ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/111 "2018-01-12T08:09:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They are only breaking the law if they hired them\* knowingly. \* Are most business owners that ignorant of basic things that can significantly affect their business? We’re seeing, most likely, 21 separate employees who were working illegally, and not one of their bosses knew? Why does it smell like a cow pie all of a sudden? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/112 "2018-01-12T08:21:29Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Are most business owners that ignorant of basic things that can significantly affect their business? We’re seeing, most likely, 21 separate employees who were working illegally, and not one of their bosses knew? Why does it smell like a cow pie all of a sudden? My understanding is that if they used fake papers to demonstrate their eligibility, the employers’ options were rather limited. A good fake might not be fake-looking enough to legally allow the employer to reject it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/113 "2018-01-12T16:09:50Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > My understanding is that if they used fake papers to demonstrate their eligibility, the employers’ options were rather limited. A good fake might not be fake-looking enough to legally allow the employer to reject it. Yes, in most cases, it would be illegal to reject it. What grounds are your rejecting it on? Are you trained in spotting fraudulent documentation? Do you scrutinize all documents to the same level? If you reject a hispanic’s documents as being suspicious, but let the white guy slide on forgetting his SSN card (which I have seen countless times), you may rightfully be accused of racial profiling. Theoretically, you cold use E-verify, but, not only is the use of it optional, that system is a pain in the ass to use. Now, if you only use it on the employees that you suspect could be undocumented, that would make it much easier to use, but that would also be racial profiling. Then there is the fact that the story is very light on detail. Were these employees hired when they were ineligible to work in the US?, or did their eligibility expire while they were working? Do you review the immigration status of all of your employees on a regular basis, or just the ones that you suspect may not be able to renew their eligibility? There certainly are employers out there that knowingly hiring undocumented workers to get them to work for lower wages and less rights than a legal worker would demand. These are large operations with hundreds of employees like [Koch foods](http://www.journal-news.com/news/crime--law/500k-fine-for-immigration-violations-paid-koch-foods/wHJUiUyj3mQS2lZV5cPFPL/), who paid a fine of a bit over $3,000 per worker. They made money off of that deal, the certainly saved on labor more than the fine cost them. If you want to go after employers, go after these guys, not the small business owner who is doing his best to keep the doors open and may not have the resources to perform in depth background and immigration checks on all his hires. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/114 "2018-01-13T01:01:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, in most cases, it would be illegal to reject it. What grounds are your rejecting it on? Are you trained in spotting fraudulent documentation? Do you scrutinize all documents to the same level? > > If you reject a hispanic’s documents as being suspicious, but let the white guy slide on forgetting his SSN card (which I have seen countless times), you may rightfully be accused of racial profiling. > > Theoretically, you cold use E-verify, but, not only is the use of it optional, that system is a pain in the ass to use. Now, if you only use it on the employees that you suspect could be undocumented, that would make it much easier to use, but that would also be racial profiling. > > Then there is the fact that the story is very light on detail. Were these employees hired when they were ineligible to work in the US?, or did their eligibility expire while they were working? Do you review the immigration status of all of your employees on a regular basis, or just the ones that you suspect may not be able to renew their eligibility? > > There certainly are employers out there that knowingly hiring undocumented workers to get them to work for lower wages and less rights than a legal worker would demand. These are large operations with hundreds of employees like [Koch foods](http://www.journal-news.com/news/crime--law/500k-fine-for-immigration-violations-paid-koch-foods/wHJUiUyj3mQS2lZV5cPFPL/), who paid a fine of a bit over $3,000 per worker. They made money off of that deal, the certainly saved on labor more than the fine cost them. If you want to go after employers, go after these guys, not the small business owner who is doing his best to keep the doors open and may not have the resources to perform in depth background and immigration checks on all his hires. Ignorance is no defense (unless, of course, you happen to be Bozo the President). As you yourself point out, there are mechanisms available for verifying citizenship. Each of those employers is guilty of negligence at the very least, and could be accomplices to fraud and immigration violations. But I can practically guarantee none of them was dragged off in handcuffs. Too much bad PR. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/115 "2018-01-13T01:20:38Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Are most business owners that ignorant of basic things that can significantly affect their business? We’re seeing, most likely, 21 separate employees who were working illegally, and not one of their bosses knew? Why does it smell like a cow pie all of a sudden? They present a SocSec card, so why would their boss know? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/116 "2018-01-13T01:23:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Ignorance is no defense (unless, of course, you happen to be Bozo the President). As you yourself point out, there are mechanisms available for verifying citizenship. Each of those employers is guilty of negligence at the very least, and could be accomplices to fraud and immigration violations. But I can practically guarantee none of them was dragged off in handcuffs. Too much bad PR. Unless the law sez “knowingly” or “willfully” in which case ignorance is indeed an excuse. I mean- anyone can be a Illegal- do you just then hire no-one but family members? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/117 "2018-01-13T03:51:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Unless the law sez “knowingly” or “willfully” in which case ignorance is indeed an excuse. > > I mean- anyone can be a Illegal- do you just then hire no-one but family members? What’s not ‘knowingly’ or ‘willfully’ about not verifying citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/118 "2018-01-13T04:03:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > What’s not ‘knowingly’ or ‘willfully’ about not verifying citizenship? The only requirement is looking at a SSN card. So, tell us- how do you positively verify Citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/119 "2018-01-13T05:09:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > As you yourself point out, there are mechanisms available for verifying citizenship. They are required to verify eligibility to work ( **not** citizenship), but they are also required to accept whatever qualifying proof the employee submits. They can only reject the documents unless a reasonable person, who is not an expert, would look at the documents and believe them to be fake. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886/120 "2018-01-13T05:39:55Z")
So in other words, those 21 arrests were of people whose paperwork was so good that they fooled the owners _and_ ICE was able to determine they were false? Wonder how that worked out? Also, they are required to accept the paperwork. They are _not_ required to offer employment or not rescind it after the fact when they determine the paperwork is false. Yeah, I said citizenship when I meant right to work. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-passing-tax-reform-actually-help-the-gop/801886.md?page=7)