Will Republicans go the way of the Whig Party?

Seems that the constant throughout all the party systems have been the Democrats. All the others coming up since then have been challengers to the Democrats; i.o.w., the Federalists regrouping for another go. In short order the Federalists were utterly crushed and ground into dust under the heel of the Democrats, and it took years in the wilderness before their remnants managed to start the Whigs. They got off to a strong start but then the Democrats scored a knockout. They were quicker to reorganize as the Republicans this time and finally got competitive. Extrapolating from past trends, this time when the Republican party is knocked out, the remnants will re-form immediately into the next anti-Democratic party, which will be better organized and more successful than ever.

Edit: Not that I seriously propose predicting this future by extrapolating the past trend.

The huge difference between today’s political world and the political world of the mid-19th century is that today the parties goes all the way down.

The rise of political machines in the classic sense occurred in dense, poor, crowded, rapidly growing cities in the northeast. There were few to no municipal services provided through taxes so political clubs arose to provide jobs and food and fuel and other basics to the poor in exchange for votes. Those votes could be parlayed into money through graft. This mostly happened after the Civil War, because most industrialization and urbanization happened after the Civil War, and the two extant parties seized urban bases. New York became Democratic and Philadelphia became Republican. So did the state legislatures, because the machines dominated them. Reformers would use the gigantic abuses to win elections, but they rarely won twice.

The power bases for the third parties that gained any strength, the Populist and the Progressive Parties, were, tellingly, in the midwest and west, where the other parties weren’t so firmly entrenched. Cities just kept getting stronger in the 20th century, though, and the third party platforms were simply incorporated into the big two.

You then had two parties competing at every level, from the smallest communities up through cities, counties, states, Congress, and the presidency. You grew up in a party, candidates were recruited for local offices by parties, and parties did everything to tie together the organization, money, ads, and policies at all levels to make the whole stronger than any of the pieces.

That’s the barrier that a third party has to overcome for the past century. A charismatic candidate, a freespender with lots of money, a scandal, death, or catastrophe, can open a niche into a single office. That’s why a Ross Perot or a Ralph Nader goes after the presidency rather than working their way up. But none of that carries over. An independent Senator doesn’t help others win a county legislative position, or a sheriff, or a judge, or a Representative. Party identification does.

It’s not impossible that this will change in another generation. No matter how much Republicans protest, the demographics are horrendous for them. As Sen. Lindsey Graham quite rightly says of the Republicans, “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.” White, non-Hispanic, males are the last large demographic that Republicans dominate. It’s not certain that they are ahead even with seniors. An internet world will see campaigns run differently. Minorities turned majorities will demand different social policies. The global economy will create new classes of winners and losers.

The big question is whether the current parties will simply adapt to these huge changes as they did throughout the 20th century and keep the name and national organization while their stands move to reflect the new majorities. I lean toward yes on this. They have a long and phenomenally successful track record of doing so.

If not, then the next big question is whether the change comes top-down - a challenger puts together a coalition that takes the presidency and some seats in Congress and people flock to a winner - or bottom-up - many groups all over the country challenge the parties and push one of them aside. I’d say this is simply not predictable. It will happen because of the people who make it happen, and they may be in grade school today.

The Republicans can survive, and maybe even thrive, by creating a permanent uneducated and superstitious class of poor folk.

To that end they are doing their best to stifle free public education, encourage home schooling, price large segments of the population out of college, control media outlets, encourage breeding of more ignorant folk, and bust unions which would provide decent paying jobs.

Overly cynical? Perhaps. But remember** ALEC**.

With the big bucks going to politicians who support that agenda, it very well might happen. They have already conquered the Bible belt. Romney talked about the 47%, but the real 47% (or more like 40%) is the group of folks who listen only to Faux News, believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, hate birth control, abortion, and universal marriage freedom, think guns are God’s gift and vote as their Republican masters tell them.

Small-L libertarians and small-G greens are a tiny fraction of the electorate. There is no way that party composed of libertarians, or a party composed of greens, is going to command a plurality of votes. This is not going to happen, not because the deck is stacked against minor parties, but because the voters don’t agree with their positions.

And even if the fraction of libertarian or green voters increases over the next few decades that doesn’t mean the third party suddenly becomes viable. It only becomes viable if there are large numbers of voters who support this particular issue, and the issue is anathema to both political parties.

This is what happened with slavery. The Democrats were a solid pro-slavery party. The Whigs tore themselves apart over slavery. That left an opening for an anti-slavery party.

There is no issue as divisive as slavery on the horizon. Our current arguments over gay marriage and tax rates and health care and drugs are not comparable. For each of these seemingly divisive issues that divide the country there is at least one major party where voters either against or for are welcome. It’s not like 50% of voters are against gay marriage, but both major parties are firmly in support of gay marraige and no anti gay marriage candidate can run for office on a major party ticket. Yes there are positions that are anathema to both parties but none that are supported by a large plurality of voters.

So what’s going to tear apart the Republicans? What issue is so divisive that there will be a large plurality of voters that support the issue, yet candidates who support the issue are not allowed to run as Republicans?

Maybe the war on drugs might become that issue as the failures of it and costs associated with it continue to become more obvious to a larger group of people who almost all smoked some pot or did some lines in their time and wound up no worse for wear because of it.

I think Ron Paul is a crackpot. A vast majority of his policies would financially or spiritually bankrupt this country. I would never vote for him. But he is right about this and as the influx of so-called Progressives who support Paul has shown, it could potentially become a very divisive issue that would affect both parties (although maybe that would be the issue that could make Democrats go the way of the Whigs).

Y’know how companies going through tough times (or lawsuits) re-brand under a different name and keep on going? That’s similar (yes, imperfect analogy) to what happened when the Whigs became the Republicans. So, is it possible the Republicans, as a brand name, go away? Yes, possible, but unlikely. There is not the type of earth-shattering wedge issue like slavery to cause a schism in today’s world. More likely the Republican brand will continue, and adjust. Maybe they’ll flip on immigration and rope in the Hispanic vote, as well as court the Asian / Indian vote - both growth areas. Maybe they’ll figure out how to support women’s issues. Put those together and they could become very dominant again.

Slavery is such a huge issue, tapping into civil rights, states rights, federalism, economics, western expansion that I doubt that gay rights or anything comparable right now has the power to drive the parties apart. The Tea Party is the only viable 3rd party now, unofficially they are not the GOP, but practically they caucus and call themselves Republicans. I don’t think the Tea Party and the GOP are different enough on enough issues, and extreme enough in those differences, to break our system of the two-party stranglehold. At best, the Dems win the next few election cycles and the crazies are put on the back burner like they’ve been in the past. Unless another black guy gets elected president, then all bets are off

The current Republican Party is a three-way alliance:

[ul]
[li]Moneyed elites[/li][li]Social conservatives[/li][li]Libertarians[/li][/ul]
The moneyed elites don’t have an ideology besides “more money and power for us”. They hardly can muster any votes on their own, so they win elections by financing the operations of the other two factions. The social conservatives and libertarians are handy allies because they both can be relied upon to vote against their own economic self-interest for ideological reasons.

There are two ways that this alliance is likely to come unstuck:

[ul]
[li]The social conservatives turn populist. This could happen if things get economically bad enough, or a truce is declared in the culture wars.[/li]
[li]The moneyed elites realize that social conservative and libertarian pandering is costing them too many elections.[/li][/ul]I’m betting on the latter. Here’s how I think it will play out:

[ol]
[li]Obama wins and the Republican ideological base loses its shit. They’re convinced that they lost because their candidate wasn’t ideologically pure enough.[/li]
[li] This leads to a purge of any remaining moderates. From 2012 on it’s all Tea Party all the time.[/li]
[li]This leads to some minor losses in the mid-term elections in 2014 and an electoral bloodbath for the Republicans in 2016 when it becomes clear that anyone acceptable to the party base is unelectable on the national stage.[/li]
[li]This leads to the moneyed elite pulling their support. They’re cynical realists, not ideologues, so there’s no point in pumping money into a lost cause. Instead they shift their focus to funding conservative Democrats who can actually win elections.[/li]
[li]This leads to a backlash in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. After 2016 a lot of the most important political battles will be fought in the Democratic primaries, not in the main election.[/li][/ol]
The future of the Republican Party depends on whether or not there are enough progressives to start a breakaway party to the left of the Democrats. If so, the Democratic Party will shift to right of center and absorb what remains of the Republican rump.

I could see the Republican party dying and being replaced by some other party but not because it’s currently dominated by crazy extremists and not because they lose elections they expected to win.
I think there’d have to be a fundamental reconfiguration, a realignment. A new conservative party that combines a different group of people as its constituency. I can’t point to any likely components that haven’t already kind-of sort-of been tried, but hypothetically speaking and purely as an “example of type” sort of illustration —— no claims that this particular scenario is at all likely to transpire —— suppose a new National Conservative party forms, economically very right-wing but with a much more ironclad commitment to budget balancing. Hence more focus on spending cuts and less focus on tax cuts. Religious traditional but opposed to the nutcase social conservative stuff, i.e., they support school vouchers and tax benefits for established churches but are moderate on abortion, aren’t against any group’s civil rights and are very much into “liberty means your home is your castle and you get to live however you damn well please”. And they strike some kind of trendy position on outsourcing jobs that is neither protectionism nor an endorsement of corporations’ extending their profit at the expense of US jobs… I don’t know, let’s say they get some good public speaker and he makes a good case for fair competition with other countries for labor that is self-regulated by the national equivalent of a chamber of commerce (hence not a guvvment bureaucracy but still makes guidelines and rules that make it a lot harder for some other country to snag all the labor jobs). Whether they actually deliver on any or all of this is not as important as successfully putting it forth as a model.

And their coalition of constituents sticks together to beat the Republicans in enough elections that the new party becomes the generic conservative American political party.

The existing Republicans beat the Whigs off the map through such a realignment, not simply because the Whigs were failing to win elections against Democrats.

I like your analysis Hamster King but I don’t think it will happen. Call it cynicism or whatnot, even if the Tea Party doesn’t get a president into the White House (and lets face it, with their support, Mitt could be much closer if not for some dumbass missteps), the party’s not going to simply up and break off due to many secure seats in the House and Senate.

Can a major party survive with a string of losses as president but a small and vocal minority in Congress? I think so, at least for a while, so I don’t think the GOP is due to splinter anytime soon. Especially since its certain Mitt is going to lose and the base is going to blame his moderate record, and the Dems will lose some seats in the 2014 midterms (as incumbent parties are wont to do). Even beyond 2016, there will be plenty of Rand Pauls, Sarah Palins, Jan Brewers, and Jim DeMints ready to fill vacant seats in Congress and the state seats. Until the local grassroots lose often and lose badly, I don’t think any major change will come. Especially if they nominate halfway decent nominee in 2016 and the Dems have a stumble with their candidate.

Hamster-Won’t #5 lead to moderate Dems being driven out of the party?

As a fiscal conservative Fereralist and socially moderate Repubilcan (pro-SSM and choice, reform drug laws, etc.) I would ask the OP - what is a viable third party alternative for me?

Making a new one is difficult as most states have laws written by Democrats and Republicans that make it extremely difficult ot impossible to for a viable third party. Plus most third parties cater to the extremes. It is very hard to find a centrist-based party anymore.

The question is, how cost-effective will it be for the moneyed interests to keep pumping cash into an organization that can’t get things done on the national level? How secure will those House and Senate seats be if there’s more money to be made supporting conservative Democrats? Romney’s already hitting money troubles because his big money donors are starting to hedge their bets. What happens when that attitude hits the party as a whole?

No, I think it will lead to the progressives defecting. There are a lot of people right now who vote Democrat only because the Republicans remain a viable threat. (The memory of what happened when people voted for Nader is very, very strong.)

If the Republican Party is reduced to an underfunded rump, the progressives will no longer feel the need to hold their noses and pull the lever for the Democrats. We’ll see a rise in primary challenges, and, if those challenges fail against the better-funded centrists, a grassroots push for a new party on the left.

Hamster-You’re, of course, correct. The Dems will challenged from their Left.

How exactly does the so-called “Tea Party” purge the Republican party?

Party activists can agitate against particular candidates all they want, and support candidates more to their liking. But nominations are decided by voters, and winners of elections are decided by voters.

The only way moderate republicans can be purged is if they get primaried by more conservative candidates and voters choose the more conservative candidate. That more conservative candidate will go on to win or lose the general election.

But that’s not purging, that’s just getting more conservative candidates elected. If the more conservative candidate is so unpopular with the electorate that they can’t get elected, then they fail. If they get elected then they weren’t unpopular after all.

Losing two presidential elections in a row–while retaining control over the House, dozerns of governorships and a majority of state houses–is not exactly the sign of a party on the verge of extinction. Just because they nominate people you don’t like and would never vote for doesn’t mean the party is about to collapse, it means that the party doesn’t appeal to you. Are the Democrats going to collapse if Obama blows this election? Did they collapse when Kerry lost, or when Gore lost, or when Dukakis lost, or when Mondale lost or when Carter lost?

The Republican party is facing some challenges ahead, mostly due to the takeover of the party by the the right-wing media-industrial complex. They might be headed for minority status for a while. Or not. If they retain control over the house and a majority of state houses, that’s not exactly minority status, is it? And even if they are headed for a minority, there’s a big difference between a minority of 45% like the Republicans would have, and a minority of 1% like the Libertarians have.

In our political system the Party elites can support particular candidates, but individual candidates control the party. If you win an election, you’re part of the party elite, willy-nilly. The powers that be can’t stop moderate or conservative or liberal candidates running for the nomination, and if the voters support them then that’s the nominee. Their only method of purging these ideologically unsuitable candidates is to refuse to support their candidacy. Not such a smart move if it means the other candidate wins by default. Or maybe the maverick candidate wins anyway. Now he’s one of the backroom fatcats, and you’re just a guy who backed a loser.

I would contend that there is a moneyed faction undeterred by such a thing. At the grassroots level, some money will be raised, but at the bigger macro level, guys like Sheldon Adelson or the Koch brothers seem to have no room for compromise with Dems, conservative or not. I think with those people still bankrolling many elections, the GOP, even if they are losing on the presidential level, can still be a threat on the local state level and in Congress.

If, going by the best case scenario, the GOP weakens to the point where conservative Dems are viable, there’s still the more liberal wing of the party to contend with. Just like how Olympia Snowe or Scott Brown isn’t as good as electing a real Dem, if these rich oligarchs abandon the GOP for conservative Dems, it still means that much of the Dems agenda will be passed. It may be that they see their best hope as using the GOP to block Dems, as they have done so well already, instead of compromising. Its a dirty word to them, the big C-word

Historical note: this is how the South operated for over 100 years after the Civil War. The Democrats were the only game in town, and the ideological battles were fought in the primaries, which frequently pitted progressive Democrats against conservative Democrats.

Maybe that could eventually happen on the national stage, but not in the near future. There are still plenty of states firmly in the grip of the Republican Party.

What’s interesting to me is how those very Republican Southern and near Western states will react if it turns out that Republicans just can’t win the presidency any more. That realization of regional impotence was part of the impetus for secession in the 1860s. (The South saw that they were about to be permanently outnumbered at the national level.) I’m not predicting a new secessionist movement. I don’t know what I’m predicting. But I do foresee a lot of rage.

I don’t know… I am seeing some current bad news in the financial press. Now, I am not sure I trust the source, and also the financial pages are sometimes rather partisan in the conservative direction (so they want to make the economy look bad to get Obama out, really!), but they aren’t making up the QE Infinity thing. So… what indicators are you thinking of when you say the recovery is going to continue in 2013? I’m not saying it won’t happen, I am just wondering what you base that on.

Ugh, don’t remind me that is one of the reasons for the Civil War. There have been yahoos running around here with secessionist ideas for the last couple of years based on much flimsier reasons (see Rick Perry). Every one that I’ve known personally has at least kept quiet around me after I reply: This is a settled constitutional issue that a lot of people have already died over, and I’d be happy to take up arms on the side of enforcing it if they’d like to continue their little fantasy into reality. But, as I said, they’re bringing it up over much more trivial issues than losing national power.

The thing that makes me think it’ll keep to pissy comments over beer is that the Confederacy generally seceded over economic interests, and it was a pretty unified interest. I don’t think that kind of economic commonality exists in the Southwest right now. The civil war was also preceded and followed by many years of political violence. We’ll probably see more of that long before an actual secession movement starts to get any traction.

Fortunately, even if they did secede, the general mentality of a group of “States Rights” folks largely dictates that they’d just die of a theory again.

I don’t think the Republicans (or the Democrats) will go the way of the Whigs, but we won’t recognize them in 100 years. Both of the parties have varied constituencies with sometimes conflicting interests now. As the country changes the people in the parties will have reasons to go back and forth between them, and the parties will have different reasons to chase each group, and they change each cycle. The change is usually pretty slow, but it’s there. The Democrats essentially were the party that started the Civil war, and they ended up being the party primarily responsible for the Civil Rights act. Conversely, the Republicans were the party of union in the Civil War, and the secessionist loons are almost all their members now.