# Will Rumsfeld resign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2006, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762 "2006-04-15T06:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/21 "2006-04-16T01:15:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The testimony from those now out of the government is that Rummy did not do this. He meddled in low level assignments, things former DoD heads did not do. We know he set troop levels for Iraq based on his ideology, not the suggestions of at least some top generals. He did not even send the final planned division to Iraq since things were going well. > > The reason he might resign is that a large number of generals are speaking out even in war time. That can’t be easy for them to do. Given his known intolerance of dissent, Franks’ statements are not going to be believed. > > But he won’t, because that isn’t the way the Bushies do things. Rummy is one of the cabal, not an easy to sacrifice lackey like Brownie. Forcing him to resign would be admitting they screwed up. The Republicans only hope is a health problem - I’m sure Bush cares more about Rummy than about a Congress which is increasingly thinking for themselves. I just hate to defend Rumsfeld, but the idea of military people forcing a Secretary of Defense to resign disturbs me just a tad. The problem with the complaints of most of the generals so far is that it’s not about competence but about management style. Things on the order of - He is rude, overbearing and doesn’t respect the military. They can’t really fault the planning method for the Iraq war because they were not a part of it. The one who was a part of it and has commented, Franks, says that the planning followed the ususal procedure. As you say, Franks’ testimony might well be self-serving since he wouldn’t want to admit being forced to accept something he didn’t like. However that is just speculation. Until one of the service chiefs like the Army or Air Force Chief of Staff weighs in we won’t know whether or not Franks was frank in his statement about how the Iraq planning went, and they aren’t likely to do that. Again division commanders are the foot soldiers that the high level commanders who actually do the planning use to carry out the plan. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/22 "2006-04-16T01:21:20Z")
So far, the only one who has faulted the plan seems to be retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Traynor. Still, he doesn’t know how the planning process went either. He does criticize the plan because post-Sadaam plans seemed lacking in sensibility. Things like the rush to disband the Iraq miltary, failure to secure arms and ammunition stores, etc. However none of that means that the military planners would have done all the right things but were overruled by Rumsfeld. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/23 "2006-04-16T01:57:02Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > So far, the only one who has faulted the plan seems to be retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Traynor. Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold was involving the planning leading to the invasion, and[he is also calling for Rumsfeld to resign](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/middleeast/10military.html?ex=1145246400&en=4e95ff7692b3b2e6&ei=5087%0A): > [@](#): > > Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold, who retired in late 2002, also called for replacing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and “many others unwilling to fundamentally change their approach.” He is the third retired senior officer in recent weeks to demand that Mr. Rumsfeld step down. > > In the essay, in this week’s issue of Time magazine, General Newbold wrote, “I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat — Al Qaeda.” > > … > > General Newbold served as director of operations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 2000 through the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and the war in Afghanistan. He left military service in late 2002, as the Defense Department was deep into planning for the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. > > “I retired from the military four months before the invasion, in part because of my opposition to those who had used 9/11’s tragedy to hijack our security policy,” General Newbold wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/24 "2006-04-16T02:23:01Z")
Rumsfeld may have Bush’s support, but Republicans are aware that Bush doesn’t have the support about 2/3 of the country. If _either_ house falls under the contol of the Democrats in November, they will have supoena power and Bush may be in hot water. I think that Rumsfeld has a lot of secrets to hide and would do well to bail out while the President can still pardon him or else declare “victory” and bring the troops home. I know that sounds flippant, but I’ve lived through something similar and I’m a little jaded. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/25 "2006-04-16T03:06:44Z")
Bush has always had a “fuck-you” attitude towards those outsiders who would offer suggestions on how he might improve his administration’s performance. The only thing that would cause him to seek Rumsfeld’s resignation would be if Rumsfeld himself started to publicly criticize Bush. Then he would be gone in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/26 "2006-04-16T03:13:21Z")
Something there is, besides generals, that doesn’t love a Rumsfeld, That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it, And spills the upper boulders in the sun; [Army Documents link Rumsfeld to prisoner’s interrogation Questions raised about his knowledge of abuse](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/15/documents_link_rumsfeld_to_prisoners_interrogation/) > [@](#): > > Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld closely monitored the late 2002 interrogation of a key Guantanamo Bay prison detainee at the same time that the prisoner was subjected to treatment that a military investigator later called ''degrading and abusive," according to newly released documents. More at Human Rights Watch: [Rumsfeld Potentially Liable for Torture](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/04/14/usdom13190.htm) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/27 "2006-04-16T03:31:45Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold was involving the planning leading to the invasion, and[he is also calling for Rumsfeld to resign](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/middleeast/10military.html?ex=1145246400&en=4e95ff7692b3b2e6&ei=5087%0A): That’s true. Newbold is now criticzing Rumsfeld for pushing a bad war. Too bad he’s a day late and a dollar short. And, having wasted his opportunity he now wants others to fall on their swords. > [@](#): > > The three-star Marine Corps general who was the military’s top operations officer before the invasion of Iraq expressed regret, in an essay published Sunday, that he did not more energetically question those who had ordered the nation to war. He also urged active-duty officers to speak out now if they had doubts about the war. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/28 "2006-04-16T03:39:23Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > That’s true. Newbold is now criticzing Rumsfeld for pushing a bad war. Too bad he’s a day late and a dollar short. You say that as if it would have made a difference if he had been timely and forceful in his protest. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/29 "2006-04-16T03:52:24Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > You say that as if it would have made a difference if he had been timely and forceful in his protest. I’m all for piling on Rummy to the max. And I suspect that at that time any criticism by Newbold might have been ineffective. It also might have put a little backbone into Congressional Democrats. We’ll never know. Criticism now, after things have gone awry is more likely to produce results in public opinion but it isn’t going to cure the Iraq cancer. As I said, I’m uneasy about military officers trying to get Rummy ousted based largely on his interaction with military officers. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Mrs\_O\_Malley\_s\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_O_Malley_s_Cow)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/30 "2006-04-16T04:39:20Z")
I say no just because that is what I read in the paper today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/31 "2006-04-17T00:41:25Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I’m all for piling on Rummy to the max. And I suspect that at that time any criticism by Newbold might have been ineffective. It also might have put a little backbone into Congressional Democrats. We’ll never know. Criticism now, after things have gone awry is more likely to produce results in public opinion but it isn’t going to cure the Iraq cancer. As I said, I’m uneasy about military officers trying to get Rummy ousted based largely on his interaction with military officers. First of all, they’re retired, so they have the perfect right to criticize now. From what I read this is something many of the retired military think is not quite right, so having seven call for this is significant. I believe at least a few are concerned about the state of the military - so I think it is more than management style. But really, a major reason for the problems in Iraq was troop strength, which Rumsfeld is directly accountable for. When someone at that level makes such a big mistake, and continues on the same path, calling for resignation is reasonable. Managers have to be ruthless enough to remove buddies who can’t hack it - Bush should have removed him ages ago, and is the real culprit here. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/32 "2006-04-17T00:41:32Z")
“Will Rumsfeld resign?” Since that would be the intelligent and insightful thing to do, the answer is most likely _NO._ ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/33 "2006-04-17T02:01:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > First of all, they’re retired, so they have the perfect right to criticize now. From what I read this is something many of the retired military think is not quite right, so having seven call for this is significant. People have a perfect right to do a lot of things that make me uneasy. > [@](#): > > I believe at least a few are concerned about the state of the military - so I think it is more than management style. But really, a major reason for the problems in Iraq was troop strength, which Rumsfeld is directly accountable for. When someone at that level makes such a big mistake, and continues on the same path, calling for resignation is reasonable. Managers have to be ruthless enough to remove buddies who can’t hack it - Bush should have removed him ages ago, and is the real culprit here. Yes, Bush is the culprit here and in many other places that anyone who is paying attention is learning more about as time passes. I worked for years on a navy weapons development and test station. After years of wondering what in hell the commanding officer was up to I finally realized that I didn’t have the foggiest notion as to what his orders were. I suspect that everything Rumsfeld does conforms to GW’s wishes and if Rummy resigns his replacement will follow the same course. Things must be going in accordance with GW’s plan because he keeps claiming that progress is being made. He is a little less clear on what precise goal the progress is toward. I don’t think Rumsfeld is the problem. He is merely an agent of the real problem which is the President. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/34 "2006-04-17T05:42:31Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I worked for years on a navy weapons development and test station. After years of wondering what in hell the commanding officer was up to I finally realized that I didn’t have the foggiest notion as to what his orders were. I suspect that everything Rumsfeld does conforms to GW’s wishes and if Rummy resigns his replacement will follow the same course. Things must be going in accordance with GW’s plan because he keeps claiming that progress is being made. He is a little less clear on what precise goal the progress is toward. > > I don’t think Rumsfeld is the problem. He is merely an agent of the real problem which is the President. If people were calling for him to resign, I’d agree it is pointless. He did not order the invasion - I’m sure he was a big fan of it, and he helped distort intelligence, but Bush is the culprit there. I’m sure Bush, however, did not order him to set the size of the occupation force the way it was set. That’s been a hot item for him for a while. Even getting it wrong the first time is not cause for him to be fired - keeping it wrong for three years is. And I assume the calls for his resignation are actually calls for Bush to ask for his resignation. Fire both of them, that’s the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/35 "2006-04-17T09:30:45Z")
Here’s a concise assessment of Rummy’s resignation by Richard Holbrooke, from Sunday’s Wash. Post: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401451.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401451.html)? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/36 "2006-04-17T13:44:22Z")
> [@A.R. Cane](#): > > Here’s a concise assessment of Rummy’s resignation by Richard Holbrooke, from Sunday’s Wash. Post: > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401451.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401451.html)? Good article. I say that even though if what he says about retired and active generals networking weakens my point that the lower ranking generals really don’t know all that much about the planning process for the Iraq invasion. One thing that strikes me is a fundamental problem for the most senior military leaders. Their mode of operation has always been to defer to civilian control and direction as to high order strategic moves, such as, “Shall we invade Iraq.” That deference results in an initial response of generating a plan to an order like “Invade Iraq.” The established habit of following civilian lead means that things might be so far down the road that it is difficult to stop the process if they later begin to realise than any initial doubts they might have had about the wisdom of the strategic decision are being confirmed. Unfortunately, the obvious solution is the wrong one. I don’t think we want military leaders to be setting national policy. I’m not even sure it’s a good idea to have them questioning the civilian leaders as to national policy. Their job, I think, should be to plan and carry out the military part of the nation’s actions. The real solution is to elect intelligent and responsible civilian leadership and the voters don’t seem to be too good at that lately. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/37 "2006-04-17T16:52:53Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Good article. I say that even though if what he says about retired and active generals networking… On further thought and just for the record, Holbrooke’s “consensus” among the generals is looking a little threadbare. Richard Meyers, Tommy Franks, and another top-rank on MSNBC this morning (I got in at the end and didn’t get his name) have apparently been left out of the network and don’t share in the consensus. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/38 "2006-04-17T19:34:32Z")
Just to be clear, I do not believe that a few retired generals will bring Rumsfeld down by speaking out. They are simply providing a focus for a growing concern of the American people. They are also acting as a catalyst for members congress to speak out against Rumsfeld. Again, there are many republicans, up for reelection, that urgently need some good news about the war prior to the Nov. vote. I believe that, very soon, Bush will have to weigh his loyalty to Rumsfeld against his loyalty to his party and the outcome is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/39 "2006-04-17T20:20:18Z")
> [@A.R. Cane](#): > > I believe that, very soon, Bush will have to weigh his loyalty to Rumsfeld against his loyalty to his party and the outcome is obvious. “Loyalty to his party”? Bush has done his party more damage than any Pub since Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762/40 "2006-04-17T20:30:06Z")
[CNN is reporting](http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/17/rumsfeld/index.html) that the critics don’t like Rumsfield goal to restructure the military into something more flexible. And they’ve lined up four retired generals to support Rumsfeld, at least for this report. I don’t see anyone leaving in this administration until the next group gets voted in. At least those that don’t report to John Bolten, the new Chief of Staff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-rumsfeld-resign/352762.md?page=3)