Will solar system colonization be feasible/worth the cost in the foreseeable future?

Stranger, I respect your knowledge and reject your learning.
You’ve spent your life learning new ways to say no, rather than finding new ways to say yes.
You have put a great deal of time and effort into mastery of a craft which amounts to naysaying.
If you are right, we should all just kill ourselves right now and get it over with.

China is going to the Moon and they are going to do something useful there.
That alone will throw space history on its ass. We’ll be playing catchup all over again.

Related: http://xkcd.com/1232/

Lacking rule of law and having a concept of human rights that is equivalent to that found in the 13th century in the civilized world, China isn’t going anywhere important. They’ll choke on their own contradictions, their own pollution, or both. And the only thing they would do with the moon if they got there would be to put a penal colony on it.

That said, we probably aren’t going to meet the ideals that the space program had decades ago, simply because we aren’t going to spend trillions of dollars without an easily foreseeable, concrete, specific benefit that’s worth the cost. We used to be idealistic in our national goals, but we don’t roll that way any more. I wouldn’t criticize Stranger or style him a “naysayer.” The answer to the question, “Should we spend 500 trillion dollars on X?”, whatever “X” may be, usually should be “no.”

This is a completely absurd claim which bears no resemblence to anything I have said. In [POST=16428446]post #93[/POST] I provided an extensive outline of what a feasible capabilities-based space program could look like, providing an architecture for sustainable development with a reasonable timeline to develop and mature technologies to the point that risks are reduced to reasonable levels. Just because the depth of your ignorance of the actual history and current state of the art of space technology allows you to sincerely wish an idea to be true doesn’t make it so. And just putting people in space by any means possible at any level of risk doesn’t solve the fundamental problems of making habitation and exploration sustainable and cost-effective to the point that the justification isn’t “cool and awesome” but inevitably rational and profitable. Our past history with Apollo clearly bears that out; in achieving the goal that was set out, the space program was hoist the the success of its figurative pertard, and was decapitated nearly the instant it was successful. The lack of followthrough was not for a lack of trying, either; both NASA and the contactors involved (Boeing, Grumman, Martin, NAA, TRW, and others) all tried to promote adaptations of Apollo and Saturn hardware for other uses, but the costs were too large for capabilities that were judged to be outside the interests of the space program, which was after all was said and done, about going to the Moon. And despite the many benefits to modern society which were derived from various space efforts (telecommunication, Earth climate and hydrological surveillance, solar weather, et cetera) few people even today see any worthwhile benefit in space exploration beyond footprints on the Moon and pictures of Saturn’s rings.

Pray tell, what useful thing is it that the Chinese are going to do on the Moon which will “throw space history on its ass”, and not been previously accomplished by Soviet landers and the Apollo program?

Stranger

I don’t think that lack of ethics has ever been a reason for failure, just as I don’t think an earnest desire for them to fail because you don’t like them is very persuasive.

That aside there are many reasons for people to desperately hope that exploration of space will never happen, though they’re not always as upfront about it as you are.

There are Americans who would hate to see other nations succeed where they’ve failed, and knowing that if they said so it would seem mean spirited of them.

So they will postulate many, many reasons why it CAN’T happen, without mentioning that it is what they’re hoping for.

The Soviets mounted the same sort of campaign when the Americans beat them to the moon, interestingly using the “Its pointless to send men into space etc . etc”, when their space programme had been based around that very premise until the Americans success.

Others think that if space exploration didn’t happen, then all of the money would be diverted to their own particular charitable cause.
(Often with charity begins at home in mind, home being THEM ).

But that’s not going to happen.

It’ll probably be diverted to military projects, state security, or even tax breaks for corporations.

But you can bet money that it won’t go on charitable ventures.

Especially as Billions in Third World Aid has sunk without trace, and without altering a single thing.

Then you’ve got those who think that everyone will pay significantly less tax if the whole Space thing goes away, but the fact is the money spent on research sounds immense as a total but when spread across the mass of the taxpayers is pretty insignificant.

(I don’t know if its true or not, but at the time it was said that the cost to each American for the Moon landings was the price of a packet of cigarettes, but as I say I don’t know if that’s true or not))

I hope for Humanitys sake, that we don’t get dissuaded from exploration and research for petty reasons, or for lack of imagination and understaning of science.

I think that if we do fail to go ahead with this we gradually decline as a species, and make all of the advances that we’ve made in history pointless and irrelevant.

And we will deserve it.

Hard to see how someone who’d actually read Stranger’s posts could write this.

As for naysaying: it’s useful to note that any hope of real progress on any problem requires the ability to identify and select the (relatively rare) good ideas and to say no to the bad ones.

Ah I see ! saying no to ideas that you either don’t like , or don’t agree with, is going to advance science and the Human race.

Sorry XEMA ,what ever your motives are , your mindset isn’t going to happen in practice.

This is necessary but not sufficient. A failure to reject bad ideas is more or less fatal to progress - but you must also go to work on some good ones.

But it is happening. There are examples without number of people rejecting approaches that have been shown not to work, and following those that have been shown to be promising.

Can anyone predict how much it’ll cost 500 years in the future (let alone 5 billion years)? Just in the last 100 years we’ve seen tons of advances that have changed the world. So right now it would cost quadrillions of dollars and 25% of our energy, but that won’t be the case in the future.

You could’ve built an mp3 player in 1960. It probably would’ve cost you a few million dollars, required megawatts of electricity and only hold 2 songs but you could still do it. Now they are $20 and run on AAA batteries.

However right now, no it isn’t important. But in a hundred years when problems on earth are much more solved, and the cost to colonize space has gone down dramatically it may be worth looking into. Even if not, a hundred years after that it may be.

[QUOTE=eburacum45]

We need to go out there ourselves before this happens; we are in a race against time.
[/quote]

Heh heh.
Consider this; the timescale for the development of human-level (and above) artificial intelligence is probably about the same as the probable timescale for the start of full-scale colonisation of the Solar System; in fact the one will probably facilitate the other in various ways.
However we will soon find that it is more convenient to send an AI on a trip to Mars, or Jupiter, or Ixion, than it is to send a crew of humans. Is that all we can look forward to - a human existence on Earth alone, with the rest of the Solar System the domain of smart technology?

A word of advice- don’t underestimate the progress of technology outside the sphere of rocketry - propulsion systems are not going to get much better because of the limitations of physics and thermodynamics, but smart tech almost certainly is.

Exactly, and not only would it have been terrible, it arguably wouldn’t have got us any closer to the modern mp3 player, because it would have just been a scaled up version of the technology of the day. Putting 20 wardrobe-sized tape players next to each other doesn’t make flash-RAM happen any sooner.

I think some people are assuming that a Mars colony is a necessary step to further exploration. But we don’t know that. It might be we arrive at the necessary tech for generation starships, and finding habitable planets in other star systems, first.
And if we waste our time trying to build a house somewhere completely inhospitable (and useless), we set back the day when those technologies are ready.

Alternately Mars and Venus could be testbeds for terraforming technology that we will almost certainly need in other solar systems.

It seems very likely that almost all exoplanets will be inhospitable for colonists without some sort of terraforming technology (even if it is only low world houses)

the few exoplanets that will be ‘shirtsleeve’ worlds where humans can breathe the atmosphere will either be waterworlds with photolytic atmospheres or planets with life.

Colonising a planet with pre-existing lifeforms opens up a whole new barrel of difficulties. They may be toxic, or infectious, or voracious, or include organisms complex enough to be counted as sentient.

We will need to be very good at terraforming if we ever hope to colonise the stars.

That sounds incredibly like what governments in office do when they get a problem that they can’t/won’t do anything about.

Oh we’ll put a working committee on it, or get a board of enquiry to investigate it.
And then it will be forgotten about .
And then when people ask about it will be too late.

Progress doesn’t happen as a matter of course, it happens because people take risks and take a chance on the unknown.
Saying that in a hundred years most of our problems will be solved is the eternal placebo of those who will fight any sort of change, especially if it involves taking risks or investing .

But they’re always the people who enjoy the benefits after its happened, and neglect to mention that they fought tooth and nail to prevent it happening, because the money and effort, would have ; in their eyes have been better spent on giving more financial aid to under privileged _ Insert name here _.

It doesn’t just happen , we have to make sacrifices to MAKE it happen.

It’s amusing to listen to people who clearly have no real knowledge of economics or engineering discuss the feasibility of space colonies. As if it were simply a matter of willpower and positive thinking.

If it takes 25% of the worlds energy output to put a handful of humans on Mars, it’s simply not worth doing. When technology advances to the point that it would take a fraction of a percent, then maybe.

Sorry I really hate to do this but where did you get the figure of 25% of the entire worlds energy output from ?

And why are you so scared about Human progress ?

Although the figure of 25% is hyperbole, it is certainly true that it would take a substantial portion of the gross domestic product of a major industrial power to accomplish even a marginal crewed mission to another planet, and again, at an opportunity cost that denies advances in other areas of both space and terrestrial technology, all for the sake of putting footprints on another world and doing some modest amount of science and exploration at a cost ratio of something on the order of 1000:1 in comparison to robotic missions, which also do not have the added complexity of having to maintain a habitable environment and return the crew.

Again, the assumption by enthusiasts of crewed space exploration is that if we send people there, some kind of magical innovation happens which suddenly makes access and habitation in space massively less costly and hazardous. Our lessons from the history of space exploration to date, however, show us exactly the opposite. Specifically, the Apollo program–a crash effort to develop the barely sufficient technology to put a crew of two people on the Moon–deliberately jumped past the more logical steps to space exploration such as developing and maturing a cost-effective heavy space launch vehicle, constructing an orbital habitat, developing an orbital transfer infrastructure, et cetera in favor of of the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous, specifically because it was cheaper and required less technology development. The result was six Lunar landing missions, only one of which actually had a scientist on crew (and he very notably complained about the lack of decent inspection and exploration he could do in the bulky suit and limited instruments), and a lack of follow-on because the system was not built to perform any other kinds of missions and even though the costs of adapting components to fill other roles (such as Grumman’s efforts to demonstrate that the LM could be used as the basis for a space tug or remotely piloted vehicle) the basic costs for launching any mission on the Saturn V–particularly one which required multiple launches and in-space assembly–were just too costly for the US to bear. The plan to replace the Apollo system with the STS which would support a space infrastructure were undermined both from the costs and limitations of the STS and the fact that without already having constructed an orbiting station or habitat, there was really no place for the Shuttle to go that was worst the costs of maintaining it. Meanwhile, the knowledge we gained about the hazards of both the space environment and the Lunar surface increased, rather than reduced, estimates of the cost and effort to develop crewed space missions.

Let’s turn the issue around and look at it from a practical context. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that a crewed mission to the surface of Mars could be developed and accomplished at a budget of US$200B over a period of 20 years in today’s dollars (which, on the basis of studies that I have worked on, is probably a ridiculously low estimate). Even if you can leverage the technology development for follow-on missions of the same level of capability for, say, 30% of the cost, that would be a US$60B mission. How many and how often do you think the public is going to be willing to fund such missions, and to what end? What we saw from Apollo was that the public interested in space exploration is a big “meh”, especially when the result isn’t flashy space shits and alien princesses, but slow flying cans, grainy video, and a big bag of rocks. Space exploration which which costs massive budgets and returns little of value to justify those costs is not sustainable, except in the sense of providing subsidy to aerospace contractors as with STS and the ISS.

Being realistic about the costs, hazards, and fundamental limitations of space technology development is not being “…so scared about Human progress…” or unsupported “naysaying”, (and claiming that it is so is a strawman argument). Nor is recognizing that there is not a limitless budget for performing whatever kind of mission you see fit regardless of any material benefits to result from it. Recognizing that there are realistic capability and fiscal limits to what can be done with existing technology is a necessary first step in laying out a practicable space technology development architecture which is sustainable (e.g. doesn’t cost hundreds of billions of dollars per mission, provides evident scientific and economic value, is sufficiently flexible to support a wide array of mission objectives and further technology development) and reduces risk to a level that would be fiscally and ethically acceptable.

Putting a crew on Mars, while perhaps ephemerally thrilling to a minority of space enthusiasts, is not human progress in the sense of improving the lives of the Earth-bound population which is funding this, nor does it develop the type of architecture necessary to make routine human space habitation and crewed missions to achieve other objectives viable. We are not going to be mining the surface of Mars for precious metals to be returned at enormous cost to Earth, nor is there any practicable way to transform Mars into a terrestrial-like environment. Even the cost of establishing and supplying a permanent outpost on Mars would be enormous at a significant risk for very little practical return, the costs of which could fund thousands of robotic missions and orbiting probes which would give us a broader and more comprehensive knowledge of Martian conditions than any single crewed outpost.

If you have some point of substance regarding actual space technology capabilities or material benefits, please expound upon them. But if the argument is simply to continue with vaguely overarching prerogatives to provide a haven against catastrophic disaster to life on Earth, or send crew to inspire schoolchildren, or profit on some hypothetical resource unobtainable on Earth, understand that these are not valid considerations in planning a practicable space architecture for exploration and resource utilization.

Stranger

I think we ought to declare war on the universe and invade it. “No sacrifice too large, no stopping until victory is achieved …”, yadayadayada. WWII paid off pretty well. We don’t even need Space Nazis, only the belief that they are out there. And America does nothing better than believe despite having no evidence.

Ah so Humans landing on another planet would NOT be an advance in Human progress .

Perhaps we should devote our research and resources to improving steam engines ?

Or perhaps we could make our caves more comfortable ?

Or perhaps we should just let the Human race slide downwards into banal ignominity, sliding beneath the ooze for a forgotten farewell because we were counting the dollars and cents and were too mean spirited to actually spend them, and we were too gutless to take the physical risks to give Mankind a huge leap forward.

Our tombstone would read…

“We commited suicide by cowardice and a lack of imagination, so that the mediocre and feckless could spend a little bit more money on themselves and their very, very large families.”

Not that there would be anyone to read it.

If we stand still, then the Human race will die out.
We either do it now as an ongoing thing, or it will never happen.

There WILL be no future when we’ve sorted out all of our problems on Earth, and freed up our money/resources for other things.

Anymore then we’re going to give up our jobs to become artists, but not right now but when we’ve finished college, when the kids have grown up, when we’ve got just a bit more money, when we…
Oh we’re on our death beds.

False dilemma.

The choice is not “Attempt to build a house on a rock 100 million miles away, for no obvious benefit, or give up”.

The choice is more like “Incredibly expensive, and perhaps not even achievable Mars colony, or investing that effort in the many technologies that are achievable, that may one day help make things like Mars colonies feasible, but that in the meantime will improve lives here on Earth”.

But if the money isn’t spent on an imagination grabbing project like advancing the Human Race, as I’ve said before, it isn’t going to be spent on another, similar project.

We’ll just buy a few more Aircraft Carriers or suchlike.

So instead of actually addressing any of the issues presented or proposals for developing a workable space technology architecture provided, you are just going to continue attacking strawmen arguments of your own construction?

Enjoy debating with yourself.

Stranger