# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/322 "2011-06-07T02:52:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] Druther live in SA than Israel. And I’d rather live in American than Israel. So what? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/323 "2011-06-07T06:05:33Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > In America, we are used to affirmative action, but South Africa applies straight quotas. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/324 "2011-06-07T07:30:20Z")
> [@grimpixie](#): > > Cite? Three examples: [Hiring practices](http://www.southafrica.info/services/rights/employmentequity.htm) [Land redistribution](http://www.etu.org.za/toolbox/docs/government/land.html#redistribution) [Cricket](http://paddlesweep.net/quotas-in-south-african-cricket-wellofcourse/) (no, seriously, and I just found this by accident, though I believe SA has removed all racial quotas re: sports) …I guess it’s [evening out the poorer classes](http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR2C3ZV#a=1)? South Africa may _claim_ to not use racial quotas, but it does in practice. Especially when you are redistributing land & giving financial aid based on race and percentages. South Africa’s government is socialist, and not in the good way. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/325 "2011-06-07T09:29:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > South Africa may _claim_ to not use racial quotas, but it does in practice. Especially when you are redistributing land & giving financial aid based on race and percentages. And how does this differ from Affermative Action? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/326 "2011-06-07T09:30:27Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Why would I edit someone else’s journalism? You can edit link titles completely independently of what the actual title is called. > [@](#): > > South Africa is a mess. Maybe it’s a _successful mess_ by your standards, but it’s a mess. If South Africa is a mess, it’s a mess no different from the way the US is a mess, or Brazil is a mess, or Israel is a mess, or any other free, democratic country that has some problems, not always of its own making. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t mean that South Africa will always be this way, but you seem hellbent on being an apologist. I’m not an apologist, I’m a fact-checker. When people spout uninformed bullshit, I correct them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/327 "2011-06-07T09:31:32Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > And I’d rather live in American than Israel. And I’d rather live in South Africa than America. So what? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/328 "2011-06-07T09:36:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > South Africa may _claim_ to not use racial quotas, but it does in practice. Since when is “women” or “disabled” a racial category? The Equity Act is meant to address _all_ past employment imbalances. Nobody complains about it helping women and handicapped people. > [@](#): > > South Africa’s government is socialist, and not in the good way. If it’s socialist (and IMO it has a long way to go to be as “socialist” as some Western European countries.) it is because the people chose that by voting for the ANC. IMO, it’s nowhere near socialist _enough_. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/329 "2011-06-07T15:14:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Since when is “women” or “disabled” a racial category? The Equity Act is meant to address _all_ past employment imbalances. Nobody complains about it helping women and handicapped people. I like cheese! Don’t criticize pineapples! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/330 "2011-06-07T17:29:41Z")
Is that supposed to be a coherent response? Look, the fact of the matter is that when it comes to employment equity, there is no “quota for Blacks”. You \*do _get a higher B-BBEE score the more "Blacks_" you employ, and that counts in your favour with government tenders etc. But you also get a higher score for women and the handicapped in the Employment Equity act score, a separate law. But it’s a score in both cases, not a quota. There is no quota, and if you don’t deal with the government, or hope to supply a company that deals with the government, no-one gives a shit what your score is. “In practice” And even if you do need to worry about your score, You can get by with just doing Skills Development,Preferential Procurement,Enterprise Development and Socio-economic Development and keeping an entire staff of able white men yourself, if your company makes \< R 35 million, and with doing jack-shit if you pull less than R 5 million (although a 50% black-owned company will own your ass in tenders). Only the 4% of SA companies who top R35 million turnover must consider their own staffing when calculating their score. And I’m quite OK with that, actually, as those tend to be the big companies traditionally run by middle-aged white men - your mining houses etc. And often the companies that profited most from apartheid. So fuck 'em \*“Black” includes Coloureds, Indians, Chinese ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/331 "2011-06-07T19:22:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is that supposed to be a coherent response? It was about as relevant as yours. So you’re saying that South Africa does not engage in practices of racial discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/332 "2011-06-07T22:03:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It was about as relevant as yours. > > So you’re saying that South Africa does not engage in practices of racial discrimination? The U.S. doesn’t, and don’t gimme any bullshit about affirmative action – how is SA any worse? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/333 "2011-06-07T22:57:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The U.S. doesn’t, and don’t gimme any bullshit about affirmative action – how is SA any worse? Affirmative action in the US, in terms of college applications, involves racial discrimination as [follows](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2009/10/affirmative-action-numbers.html): > [@](#): > > Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s. > > Espenshade found that when comparing applicants with similar grades, scores, athletic qualifications, and family history for seven elite private colleges and universities: > > Whites were three times as likely to get fat envelopes as Asians. Hispanics were twice as likely to win admission as whites. African-Americans were at least five times as likely to be accepted as whites. In SA, in terms of college admissions, it seems they have the same racial [discrimination](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/world/africa/23safrica.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=2): > [@](#): > > Prof. Neville Alexander, a Marxist sociologist who was classified as mixed race under apartheid, has roused the campus debate with the charge that affirmative action betrays the ideals of nonracialism that so many fought and died for during the long struggle against apartheid. Professor Alexander, who spent a decade imprisoned on Robben Island with Nelson Mandela, insists that the University of Cape Town, which is public, must resist pressure from the government to use racial benchmarks in determining how well the university is performing. “The government under apartheid did the same and we told them to go to hell,” he said in one standing-room-only campus debate. > > The university has an openly stated policy of admitting blacks who have substantially lower test scores than whites, And in terms of employment: > [@](#): > > **South Africa has in recent years passed legislation instituting the world’s most rigorous form of affirmative action…** > > BEE is based on redistribution according to race rather than wealth or income. Businesses are expected to fulfill rigorous race quotas in a quest for a “demographically representative” staff. Redistribution legislation has made it more difficult for skilled white workers to find employment domestically, resulting in an outflow of skill. Between 1994 and 2001, the percentage of enterprises that perceived the emigration of skilled manpower as “significant” rose from 2 percent to 33 percent. This disturbing skills shortage in many sectors of the economy is accompanied by slow economic growth rates that barely keep pace with population growth. [http://hir.harvard.edu/a-tilted-balance/righting-wrongs](http://hir.harvard.edu/a-tilted-balance/righting-wrongs) ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/334 "2011-06-08T00:23:30Z")
Ah, so the amended statement of the OP should read\*: “Will South Africa and the United States go the way of Zimbabwe?” \*Disclaimer: this is not a real quote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/335 "2011-06-08T00:32:59Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Ah, so the amended statement of the OP should read\*: “Will South Africa and the United States go the way of Zimbabwe?” > > \*Disclaimer: this is not a real quote. So long as “the way of Zimbabwe” is between consenting adults and requires no expensive equipment, count me in! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/336 "2011-06-08T00:41:56Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Ah, so the amended statement of the OP should read\*: “Will South Africa and the United States go the way of Zimbabwe?” > > \*Disclaimer: this is not a real quote. As long as the US isn’t planning on shifting farm ownership in a similar manner 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/337 "2011-06-08T00:50:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > As long as the US isn’t planning on shifting farm ownership in a similar manner 🙂 Breaking up American agribiz corporations’ plantations into family farms would be . . . a good idea, come to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/338 "2011-06-08T01:25:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The U.S. doesn’t, and don’t gimme any bullshit about affirmative action – how is SA any worse? I am not opposed to affirmative action. I _am_ opposed to specific race-related economic programs that seek to give advantage one group and disadvantage another. There is a difference between ‘not discriminating’ or ‘seeking to make the workforce more diverse as it is a benefit to society’ v. ‘purposely redistributing wealth to a disadvantaged group while ignoring the rising poverty rates of the formerly advantaged group because of the sins of the forefathers’. Not only does it fly in the face of human rights, but it is bad economics. The ANC has failed in all of its BEE goals thus far. The United States does not have a program where it seeks to redistribute wealth to the bottom 90 per cent of the population based on race. I don’t oppose progressive economies, but those should be based on numbers, not skin color. This whitey panic shit has got to stop. There’s no rainbow Africa. There’s a black Africa with a tightly managed economy that has only brought ‘wealth’ to a few. Hell, what am I talking about? People who aren’t ‘colored’ or ‘black’ in S. Africa are called non-Africans, right? As a non-citizen of South Africa, it’s fine if you don’t want me, but I’m thinking specifically of the _citizens of South Africa_ - all of them. Western governments are founded not only on democracy, but liberty. The Apartheid government was the tyranny of the minority, but since that was bad, people like **Mr Dribble** seem to think it’s okay for similar practices and rhetoric to be put into place…because somehow, “Hey, these people are white, the white people used to keep the black man down, so fuck it if you’re suffering now.” :dubious: Not sure why I’m being demonized by my positions as Nelson Mandela has accused the ANC of being as racist as the former apartheid government. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/339 "2011-06-08T01:32:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Breaking up American agribiz corporations’ plantations into family farms would be . . . a good idea, come to think of it. Why? Do you enjoy high food costs? I don’t. And if you don’t want your food filled with corn syrup and steroids, shop at Whole Paycheck or the farmer’s market. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/340 "2011-06-08T02:07:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Why? For one thing, because a farm family has a certain measure of basic self-sufficiency. Barring foreclosure, they can’t be thrown out of work. My Mom’s family was pretty poor (her father was a sharecropper), but all through the Depression they never missed a meal – because they had a farm, and ate what they grew on it. If that doesn’t mean anything to us nowadays . . . I hope it never will again, but I suspect otherwise. **I** don’t want to be a farmer, but I’m sure there are many who would jump at the chance; and an America with a significant population of family farmers would be a more **resilient** society than we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/341 "2011-06-08T02:21:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For one thing, because a farm family has a certain measure of basic self-sufficiency. Barring foreclosure, they can’t be thrown out of work. My Mom’s family was pretty poor (her father was a sharecropper), but all through the Depression they never missed a meal – because they had a farm, and ate what they grew on it. If that doesn’t mean anything to us nowadays . . . I hope it never will again, but I suspect otherwise. **I** don’t want to be a farmer, but I’m sure there are many who would jump at the chance; and an America with a significant population of family farmers would be a more **resilient** society than we have now. But we \*used \*to have a significant population of family farms. A family farm can only survive if it can afford all of the means of production, and that’s a rather expensive one. As you pointed out, your mom’s family was poor. Not many people are going to trade that for the benefit of being able to eat your pet cow if you get hungry. SA has an ag sector and people are starving. Same with Japan and China, though they may have bigger ag economies-- SA’s imports account for a low part of its GDP. Farms are a lot of work - I don’t know of any family farms that aren’t large fulltime businesses that wax and wane with the rest of the economy & weather. The richest parts of SA are the urban areas. Anyway, the government stepping in to break up corporate farming to hand it to unskilled families sounds like a bad idea. 😉 edit: I’m also not sure how majority subsistence farming really contributes to the national or global economy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=18)