# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/362 "2011-06-08T11:16:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There are sanction rules in place, yes.a) Because he’s popular with a large constituency > b) they have sanctioned him internally - more than once, IIRC.But you feel free to tell us what it’s like to really live here :smack: Sanction is not disown - do you mean ‘censure’? That’s still not distancing yourself from a candidate. And he is popular for a reason, so don’t make like he’s a huge baffoon. There is no fucking way the Republican Party or the Democratic Party in the U.S. would ever let an overtly racist fucktard control its media unless it supported him. And you can’t reasonably expect an American to know all of the _party rules_ of the ANC. Most Americans couldn’t tell you Senate floor rules or the RNC platform or DNC regulations regarding conventions. I’m the only person I know that has used Robert’s Rules of Order, and that’s because I was the Secretary of a county central committee. I’m going to remember this the next time you have an opinion on anything that doesn’t have to do with your immediate neighborhood. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/363 "2011-06-08T11:24:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Q: Can the ANC ‘disown’ a party member? Why doesn’t it do so with Malema? I’m not familiar with the rules of party politics in South Africa. The DNC here is hard enough to keep track of… Yes, the ANC can expel members. There’s some stuff about its disicplinary procedure at the end of [its constitution](http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=207). Why hasn’t it done so to Malema? I don’t know if he’s done anything which warrants expulsion under the ANC’s policies. When he went before a disciplinary tribunal, he was [fined and required to apologise](http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/malema-apologises-after-disciplinary-hearing-1.483562). But obviously internal party procedures are probably more political than they are judicial. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/364 "2011-06-08T11:29:48Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Yes, the ANC can expel members. There’s some stuff about its disicplinary procedure at the end of [its constitution](http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=207). Why hasn’t it done so to Malema? I don’t know if he’s done anything which warrants expulsion under the ANC’s policies. When he went before a disciplinary tribunal, he was [fined and required to apologise](http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/malema-apologises-after-disciplinary-hearing-1.483562). But obviously internal party procedures are probably more political than they are judicial. - Thank you\* for your help. So the racist remarks and calls for crime don’t violate any ANC policies? Since the ANC feeds him millions, I doubt a few monetary fines will do anything. A government and party that allows that kind of shit clearly supports it. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/365 "2011-06-08T11:33:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Spoken like a guy who comes from a country with a dickless military. Spoken perhaps like a guy who has consistently espoused a pacifist point-of-view, as MrDibble has on these boards. > [@](#): > > Like I said: you don’t even control your own domestic front…so your government relies on fear and smoke screens to stay in power. What does this even mean? No, seriously, what are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/366 "2011-06-08T11:38:07Z")
Oh - African v. non-African. I know I’ve read it in papers and such: > [@](#): > > ``` > 2.1 Unite all the people of South Africa, **Africans in particular** , for the complete liberation of the country from all forms of discrimination and national oppression. > > ``` Anyway, that’s not my point. I don’t mind ethnic group parties - though blacks in S. Africa are not one homogenous ethnic group…hm…anyway. Another Q: Does _party membership_ mean you’re on a _party list_ and eligible for office or is that separate? Like, party members vote their MPs? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/367 "2011-06-08T11:39:45Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Spoken perhaps like a guy who has consistently espoused a pacifist point-of-view, as MrDibble has on these boards. When it suits him. > [@](#): > > What does this even mean? No, seriously, what are you referring to? The corruption in the government, the ANC, the police forces, security, etc. edit: Or perhaps the South African police forces are doing exactly what the government wants and they’re just repressive. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/368 "2011-06-08T11:40:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So the racist remarks and calls for crime don’t violate any ANC policies? Since the ANC feeds him millions, I doubt a few monetary fines will do anything. Well, really I would have thought that some of his remarks would violate the ANC’s prohibition on “Sowing racism, sexism, tribal chauvinism, religious and political intolerance, regionalism or any form of discrimination.” But it seems he basically plea-bargained the “charges” down to get away with the apology. > [@](#): > > A government and party that allows that kind of shit clearly supports it. I suppose you can infer that the ANC supports it; certainly he’s one reason why I wouldn’t vote for them. I don’t think you can infer that the _government_ supports it; the government doesn’t have any right to infringe on people’s free speech unless it crosses the line into hate speech or incitement. And in fact Malema has been [convicted of hate speech](http://mg.co.za/article/2010-03-15-malema-guilty-of-hate-speech). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/369 "2011-06-08T11:49:14Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Well, really I would have thought that some of his remarks would violate the ANC’s prohibition on “Sowing racism, sexism, tribal chauvinism, religious and political intolerance, regionalism or any form of discrimination.” But it seems he basically plea-bargained the “charges” down to get away with the apology. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I suppose you can infer that the ANC supports it; certainly he’s one reason why I wouldn’t vote for them. I don’t think you can infer that the _government_ supports it; the government doesn’t have any right to infringe on people’s free speech unless it crosses the line into hate speech or incitement. And in fact Malema has been [convicted of hate speech](http://mg.co.za/article/2010-03-15-malema-guilty-of-hate-speech). Well, if the ANC is in charge, it becomes the ‘government’ that supports it. Kind of like when people talk about the\* American government\* that invaded Iraq. And the ANC interfered on those corruption charges, right? Malema’s hate speech rhetoric is not something that just ‘slips’ every once in awhile. He’s been headlining the news for the last few years, no? ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/370 "2011-06-08T11:55:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Another Q: Does _party membership_ mean you’re on a _party list_ and eligible for office or is that separate? Like, party members vote their MPs? It works like this (for the National Assembly, the lower house of Parliament): when we vote, we vote for a party. Each party gets seats in proportion to its share of the votes. Before the election, each party has to produce its _party list_, which is basically a list of potential MPs; if the party gets _n_ seats, then the first _n_ people on the list go to Parliament. (There’s a wrinkle that half of the MPs are selected from separate provincial lists, so actually the parties submit a national list and nine provincial lists. The overall effect is the same.) How the parties choose their lists is mostly up to their internal policies. I don’t know how directly individual ANC members are involved in selecting the party’s candidates; all I can determine from the party constitution I linked above is that there’s a “national list committee” which draws up regulations for the selection of candidates. But mere party _membership_ doesn’t automatically imply getting on the party’s list, seeing as there are only 400 seats in the National Assembly and slightly more than that in the provincial legislatures. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > When it suits him. From my reading of MrDibble’s posts on the SDMB, he has been remarkably consistent as a pacifist. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/371 "2011-06-08T12:09:18Z")
[QUOTE] > [@ctnguy](#): > > It works like this (for the National Assembly, the lower house of Parliament): when we vote, we vote for a party. Each party gets seats in proportion to its share of the votes. Before the election, each party has to produce its _party list_, which is basically a list of potential MPs; if the party gets _n_ seats, then the first _n_ people on the list go to Parliament. (There’s a wrinkle that half of the MPs are selected from separate provincial lists, so actually the parties submit a national list and nine provincial lists. The overall effect is the same.) Now this part I know - except I thought you didn’t HAVE to publish your party lists? > [@](#): > > How the parties choose their lists is mostly up to their internal policies. I don’t know how directly individual ANC members are involved in selecting the party’s candidates; all I can determine from the party constitution I linked above is that there’s a “national list committee” which draws up regulations for the selection of candidates. This is why I was curious of Melema could get into legislative power…though he seems to be content where he is. The party is not separate from the head of state, so do MPs really criticize the President much? I can’t imagine so. > [@](#): > > But mere party _membership_ doesn’t automatically imply getting on the party’s list, seeing as there are only 400 seats in the National Assembly and slightly more than that in the provincial legislatures. Yes, I wasn’t sure if party membership was like that of a central committee or like in America where being a ‘member’ of a certain party means you’re affiliated with their platform and tend to vote for them. But it seems that in order to be part of the ANC, you have to be selected/voted in or it’s on a case by case basis instead of open to all, no? In America, the DCC has membership, and those are elected on a local basis. The DCC membership votes on the party leaders and such, but the DCC membership does NOT choose the government leader or the primary candidate. The party leadership is separate than the head of state. But if the ANC had 3,000 party members and 230 legislative seats or something, I figured the party members would be responsible for that “list” - in order of popularity, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/372 "2011-06-08T12:13:27Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Well, if the ANC is in charge, it becomes the ‘government’ that supports it. Kind of like when people talk about the\* American government\* that invaded Iraq. And the ANC interfered on those corruption charges, right? Well, the invasion of Iraq was actually carried out by the American government, wasn’t it? It wasn’t the GOP Invasion of Iraq. The ANC is in the wrong for allowing Malema to go on as he has for without seriously sanctioning him for it; since he is a member and the ANC hasn’t done anything about him, it does make the party complicit in his statements. But to say that the _government_ must approve of his statements because they don’t shut him up, well, that’s different. It implies to me the idea that the power of the government should be used to stop him, and that would be dangerous. I suppose if you use “government” in the sense of “the current administration” then maybe the answer is different. > [@](#): > > Malema’s hate speech rhetoric is not something that just ‘slips’ every once in awhile. He’s been headlining the news for the last few years, no? On and off, yes. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/373 "2011-06-08T12:19:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > This is why I was curious of Melema could get into legislative power…though he seems to be content where he is. The party is not separate from the head of state, so do MPs really criticize the President much? I can’t imagine so. > > … > > But if the ANC had 3,000 party members and 230 legislative seats or something, I figured the party members would be responsible for that “list” - in order of popularity, I guess. It is one of the weaknesses of the current lectoral system IMO - that party loyalty is rewarded, sometimes at the expense of competence. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/374 "2011-06-08T12:38:54Z")
So far my take-away on this is CP knows fuck all about South Africa, but nevertheless feels obliged to take some swipes because SA isn’t bent over for hard zionism. Not very interesting. And somewhat sad trying to view everything through that one lens. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/375 "2011-06-08T13:06:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Now this part I know - except I thought you didn’t HAVE to publish your party lists? They have to be submitted to the Independent Electoral Commission some time before the election; the IEC is required by law to make copies of the lists available at each municipal head office in the country. In practise, they’re also [on the website](http://www.elections.org.za/content/Dynamic.aspx?id=1416&name=Elections&LeftMenuId=100&BreadCrumbId=220). What you may be thinking of is that parties don’t have to announce their candidates for the executive offices (President, Premiers, Mayors) before the elections, because - the system being a parliamentary one - the executives are elected by the legislatures rather than directly. Though usually a party’s mayoral candidate will be #1 on their list for council elections, etc. > [@](#): > > This is why I was curious of Melema could get into legislative power…though he seems to be content where he is. The party is not separate from the head of state, so do MPs really criticize the President much? I can’t imagine so. Not much; that’s a weakness of the parliamentary system in general as well as a particular weakness of pure-PR elections, as grimpixie has mentioned. > [@](#): > > Yes, I wasn’t sure if party membership was like that of a central committee or like in America where being a ‘member’ of a certain party means you’re affiliated with their platform and tend to vote for them. But it seems that in order to be part of the ANC, you have to be selected/voted in or it’s on a case by case basis instead of open to all, no? Not really; there are plenty of members of the ANC who are just members, in the sense that they pay dues and are entitled to vote in branch meetings, but who don’t stand for elective office. According to [this statement](http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=4814), last year there were about 750k members. (There are, by my calculation, around 10k elected offices in the country, of which presumably about 60-65% are filled by ANC members.) What we don’t have is the peculiarly American idea of being a “Registered Republican/Democrat/whatever”, which I understand is just a way of telling the state government which primary you’re going to vote in, right? If you want to be a member of the ANC (or any other SA party) you have to apply and pay the membership fee, and the party has the right to refuse you. > [@](#): > > In America, the DCC has membership, and those are elected on a local basis. The DCC membership votes on the party leaders and such, but the DCC membership does NOT choose the government leader or the primary candidate. The party leadership is separate than the head of state. I suppose that reflects the difference between a presidential system and a parliamentary system. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/376 "2011-06-08T13:21:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] Druther live in SA than Israel. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > And I’d rather live in American than Israel. > > So what? > [@MrDibble](#): > > And I’d rather live in South Africa than America. So what? South Africa is a big enough topic. Drop the Israel/Zionism discussion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/377 "2011-06-08T15:57:34Z")
Look, **CP** , everyone here acknowledges Julius Malema is a twat of the highest order. And yes, he has a vocal following. But they don’t make the country’s policies and they are not unopposed, even in their own smaller sector of the larger tripartite alliance. Like I said, the Palin analogy is a good one - I don’t think anyone’s still losing sleep over her getting into power. I don’t lose any sleep over Ju-ju. I wan’t keen on Zuma as President, either, and yet he’s working out OK. So all that tells me is that our democracy works, that there are sufficient checks and balances to keep our country from becoming Zimbabwe 2: Electric Boogaloo. Now, like I said, I’m not in favour of B-BBEE either, but it’s not your mischaracterisation of it, and “in practice”, which seemed to be your main concern, it appears to not be the quota system you think it is. “In practice”, Whites are not losing their jobs over it. They might not be in the pound seats like they were under Apartheid, but so what? That reflects the demographic reality on the ground. It’s _not_ racist to have a policy that disfavours one race grouping, if the intent and effect is to address an _existing_, entrenched racial imbalance. It’s justice. Balancing the scales. Now, if we _still_ had BEE in place 50 years from now, after 2 generation have grown up going to unsegregated schools and had a chance to compete on an even footing, yeah, you can start questioning the racist nature of it all. But\* right now\*, the people actually affected by BEE are \*not \*on an even footing. So some redress is called for. B-BBEE is what the country decided it wanted, _through the democratic process_. The ANC was voted in, they enacted B-BBEE in response to negative views of their earlier Narrow version, and they got voted in again, so they must have got something right. “Tyranny of the majority” you can cry, maybe, but it beats a civil war or ethnic genocide, any day. Huh, peaceful solutions to societal problems, such a crazy idea. ---
**Author:** ![Skelm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Skelm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skelm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/378 "2011-06-11T23:14:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A better question would be: Why didn’t Zimbabwe go the way of South Africa? They started out in almost exactly the same place, after they abolished their white-only governments. Well in Rhodesia there was an opposition and blacks were allowed to vote since 1923. In the Senate were black choosen leaders and the voting system was non racial. In Rhodesia there were black MP’s and often voted in by white Rhodesians. In Zimbabwe the opposition (MDC) is being terrorized and the members are being murdered. (black and white) Where is the strong opposition in South Africa? The ANC has a strong hold in all government departments. In Zimbabwe about 12 white farmers have been murdered since the land invasion and thousands of black farm-workers. Also black commercial farmers were kicked of their land if they didn’t vote for Zanu PF. In South Africa, since 1994 more then 3000 white farmers have been killed. [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece) But also over 50.000 people are murdered a year. Most is crime, the farmers is a political aim. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0zCJYzJdvo&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0zCJYzJdvo&feature=related) And the productive farms handed over to people who know nothing about farming, managed to turn a productive farm into a desolate place within one year. So when will the famine start in South Africa? Africa should never have to have hunger as they have fertile land and so much resorts that it should be richer then Europe and the USA. Starving children in Zimbabwe is their own fault. Rhodesia used to feed themselves and the neighbouring countries. Something that the AID industry likes to cover up. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVxVWnWENRs&NR=1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVxVWnWENRs&NR=1) But if there were no starving children, the AID organisations don’t have an income. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/379 "2011-06-12T17:02:37Z")
> [@Skelm](#): > > Most is crime, the farmers is a political aim. Cite for the political aim of killing farmers? Your Times link tells the story of a couple of drug addicts who got drunk and went to rob a farmer, shot him and fled in panic - I’m failing to see the political link… Grim ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/380 "2011-06-12T18:20:24Z")
> [@grimpixie](#): > > I’ve said it before - there is much about ANC policy that I dislike, for example, I think BEE is mis-directed and has advantaged a few rather than the many. There is much that is still horribly wrong with the country - AIDS, crime, paternalistic attitudes, misogyny, etc. But none of this is insurmountable, most of it is being addressed at a national level, and my answer to the OP is “No, it isn’t” Take a look at American history. Self-government beyond the most basic local or provincial level was something we just didn’t know how to do when we started, nobody in the world did. There were plenty of times our country made democracy look like something to point and laugh at. Corrupt urban machine politics started with Tammany and persisted well into the mid 20th Century, near-genocidal treatment of Indians was often official policy, slavery took us a horribly long time and violent way to get rid of, and the culture was rife with bigotry top to bottom. But, we got better. South Africa has the potential, someday, to inspire and lead modernization and democracy all over your continent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/381 "2011-06-12T19:05:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Huh, peaceful solutions to societal problems, such a crazy idea. In the U.S., one of the key elements in our national heritage, and one of the key elements in our political-cultural DNA – one of the basic sets of points-of-national-pride that politicians and political activists even today are often obliged to hark back to, one way or another – is the story of how we fought the Revolution, threw off the chains of tyranny, etc., and then founded the world’s first big national republic/democracy, on the basis of all the principles of liberty and equality and justice expressed in the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights – everything Lincoln harked back to fourscore and seven years later. (And so did Jefferson Davis and all, in **their** way – it’s a complicated story.) In South Africa’s case, you have a lot of foundational stories in your past – the founding of Cape Town, the Great Trek, the conquests of Shaka and the conquest of the Zulu in turn, the Boer War. But, from now on, your basic foundation story is that of how you the people abolished an oppressive regime and founded a working panracial democracy peacefully, and went through the Truth and Reconciliation process, and all, **when it all could so very easily have gone so very differently and worse** – anything from a Zimbabwe scenario to a Spanish Civil War scenario to a Rwanda/Bosnia scenario. And don’t tell me there weren’t some forces on the ground, on both sides, that **hoped** for something in that range. But you made other and better collective choices and stuck with them. That is what South Africans will always have to be proud of. Your politicians a hundred years from now, I may hope, will always be harking back to **that.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=20)