# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/41 "2011-05-10T00:30:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This thread is about South Africa and Zimbabwe, not your opinions of the relative IQs of different groups of people. Your posts about race and IQ aren’t relevant to this discussion. I also point out that you’re both venturing into one-trick pony territory here. Clark’s research and his book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ are not about IQ. It’s about cultural and genetic factors that lead to a population being able to quickly adapt to an industrial economy. That is obviously relevant to discussions of how countries are likely to fare in terms of macro-economic and societal outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/42 "2011-05-10T00:36:02Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Clark’s research and his book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ are not about IQ. And yet the discussion with **New Deal Democrat** seemed to be moving in that direction all the same. I’m not going to split hairs here - that tangent is closed. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/43 "2011-05-10T00:48:46Z")
> [@Saffer](#): > > Recently, a prominant South African politician has said that white people are criminals for stealing the land from black people, and that white owned land will be expropiated with no compensation and given to black people. He said this alongside the president who did nothing to deny it. > The majority of the voting population seem to be in favour of this short sighted approach. Is South Africa destined to become Zimbabwe 2? > > [http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/we-must-take-over-the-land-1.1066065](http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/we-must-take-over-the-land-1.1066065) > > [http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local-Elections-2011/Julius-Malema-sparks-new-race-row-20110509](http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local-Elections-2011/Julius-Malema-sparks-new-race-row-20110509) I would be more concerned with Zuma’s proposed speeding up of [reforms](http://www.abndigital.com/news/top-business-stories/531640.htm). The LA Times had an interesting [article](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/21/world/la-fg-south-africa-farms-20101121) late last year on the problems land reforms have encountered so far. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/44 "2011-05-10T03:42:13Z")
On the other hand, South Africa is a one-party democracy in the sense that the ANC constantly wins supermajorities sort of like Mexico under PRI or a large-scale version of Democratic party machines in the Old South or in the inner cities. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/45 "2011-05-10T04:06:20Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have been trying to find how the end of apartheid in 1994 effected the murder rate and the per capita gross domestic product in South Africa. If any one has that information, please post it here, or send it to me in a PM. I have read a lot of anecdotal information from disgruntled white South Africans, but that is biased. You can find the murder rate for the last few years at the South African Police Service website, over [here](http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2010/categories/murder.pdf) (PDF). A ratio of 34.1 per 100,000 for last year. In the US it was 5.0 per 100,000 for 2009. It has been decreasing for 20 years but no one seems to care. I wrote a paper on South African crime once. The police did not keep good records of crime before 1994. I know they started keeping good records after 1994, but I don’t remember where I found them. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/46 "2011-05-10T05:22:35Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > There is, I think, a valid point in the issue of maladapted cultural norms, that has roots back into the near-agrarian, clan and tribe past. I don’t doubt that social transitions are difficult and can cause problems. I do take exception to the idea that Africans are uniquely stubborn and backwards. For the most part, they are nothing more exotic than farmers. For the most part, they respond to incentives in perfectly ordinary and unremarkable ways. If they are not responding the way you expect them to, it’s probably a matter of you not understand the incentives. But we’ve got a few hundred years of painting Africa as primitive, savage an uncivilizable. Why stop now? How is worshipping your ancestors somehow inherently incompatible with modernity, and worshipping a dead Jewish guy is not? Why is it that when we organize under linguistic, religious, geographic and familial ties we are creating the wonderful thing we call ‘a community’ but when Africans do that, it’s a backwards ‘tribe’? How are traditional healers different than our own new-age BS? Why are chiefs more backwards than any other royalty? I’m not saying it’s all roses- it’s not. But half the “backwards”’ stuff people harp about only becomes “backwards” when you use the words we made up to describe African institutions rather than their familiar counterparts. FWIW, I do agree that “traditional” is not the best word. “Traditional” institutions are dynamic and ever changing. They respond to people and the environment, including modern needs. It’s not entirely right to think of them as leftovers from the past. As long as they are accepted and perpetuated by modern people, they are by definition modern. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/47 "2011-05-10T06:36:27Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I still don’t understand the question. The practice of taking land back from white men and giving them to black South Africans has been going on for years. As the LA Times article that Chen019 linked explains, land reform in South Africa is currently carried out on a “willing seller-willing buyer” model, subsidized by the government, so “taking back” is probably not the best description. The controversy at hand is about possibly changing that model. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/48 "2011-05-10T07:13:11Z")
One point that should be emphasised - people often think that South African land issues are simply a matter of Blacks taking back all the land wherever they can. So they read about the successful land claims and figure that this is just a response to long-ago colonization. Except it’s not. Quite a lot of the land claims relate to land that was taken [in living memory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act). So the “Land that’s been in the (white) family for generations” bit is bullshit a lot of the time. Another large component is[tribal land claims](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/15/southafrica.rorycarroll)\*. And that’s[not just](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca-Cayuga_Tribe_of_Oklahoma#New_York_land_claims) a South African phenomenon, now, is it? - Note that, \*unlike \*Zimbabwe, the (majority black) Government was against that claim. But I expect that’s because they’re corrupt and out for all they can wring out of the coffers, right? ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/49 "2011-05-10T08:10:26Z")
And - to back up MrDibble’s point - the land claim process is constitutionally limited to dispossession that occurred since 1913. Although, the specific land claim process is somewhat distinct from the more general policy of land reform. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Except it’s not. Quite a lot of the land claims relate to land that was taken [in living memory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act). So the “Land that’s been in the (white) family for generations” bit is bullshit a lot of the time. If I may nitpick a little - correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Group Areas Act deal mostly with cities and towns? Agricultural land, which is the topic of contention, was mostly expropriated somewhat earlier under the Land Act (1913) and the Native Land and Trust Act (1936), IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/50 "2011-05-10T11:27:16Z")
> [@Saffer](#): > > Recently, a prominant South African politician has said that white people are criminals for stealing the land from black people, and that white owned land will be expropiated with no compensation and given to black people. He said this alongside the president who did nothing to deny it. > The majority of the voting population seem to be in favour of this short sighted approach. Is South Africa destined to become Zimbabwe 2? > > [http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/we-must-take-over-the-land-1.1066065](http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/we-must-take-over-the-land-1.1066065) > > [http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local-Elections-2011/Julius-Malema-sparks-new-race-row-20110509](http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Local-Elections-2011/Julius-Malema-sparks-new-race-row-20110509) DAMN south Africa for doing to the whites what the whites did to them. Totally intolerable! How DARE those evil racist black African natives take their land back. The courageous Boers took that land and raped their women fair and square. \ ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/51 "2011-05-10T11:33:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You gotta remember that these “exotic” spear dances (or whatever) are exactly the same as the square dancing your grandma made you learn in Junior High. A “bizarre ancestor worship ceremony” is exactly the same as an old fashioned tent revival. My Cameroonian friend’s family photo albums looked straight our of National Geographic, but to them, they are just photos of grandma, grandpa and old aunt Libby. That hut? It’s cozy and nostalgic like an old farmhouse or a log cabin. > > Modernity can exist without having to look exactly like American culture (as surely we’ve realized from East Asia.) Nostalgia is present in every culture- from country kitsch to Africans nostalgic about Grandma’s hut. I just _had_ almost this very exact conversation with my eldest daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/52 "2011-05-10T20:34:46Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > DAMN south Africa for doing to the whites what the whites did to them. > > Totally intolerable! How DARE those evil r2cist black African natives take their land back. The courageous Boers took that land and r2ped their women fair and square. > > \ Is it going to benefit the black population if South Africa goes the way of Zimbabwe? I don’t think it will. Getting rid of the white farmers would be bad for all South Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/53 "2011-05-10T21:18:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure. Selective choosing of databases would \*never \*introduce any bias into the dataset:rolleyes:I’m not “railing”, I just like getting my digs into the murderous shitfuckers when opportunity presents. > > I know it looks like I was saying that I didn’t trust this data because it’s the CIA site. That’s poor phrasing on my part. I’m sorry, I should rephrase my reply to **NDD** as “I’m sure this data is all very nice and above-board and well-researched, but I have an allergy to giving my hard-won mouseclicks and eyeball time to anything remotely linked with those syphilitic dog-rapers in Langley. Please give a better reason to distrust the Google/World Bank data, other than that it doesn’t agree with the warty-pig-cock-fellaters’ numbers. Otherwise we’re just playing duelling cites” > > Like I said, in this case the bias doesn’t hurt the data I already produced, anyway. I just fucking hate the CIA. I think you’re being unfair here, though. Syphilitic dog-rapers are certainly disgusting and evil - but they “only” are harming dogs. The CIA did profound harm to a very large number of actual people. I doubt that there are any actual syphilitic dog-rapers on this Board, so there’s no real harm done - but if there were, they’d have a legitimate gripe with your comments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/54 "2011-05-10T21:52:24Z")
A better question would be: Why didn’t Zimbabwe go the way of South Africa? They started out in almost exactly the same place, after they abolished their white-only governments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/55 "2011-05-10T21:54:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Modernity can exist without having to look exactly like American culture (as surely we’ve realized from East Asia.) 😕 No, the experience of East Asia would suggest the opposite conclusion. Tokyo is New York with funny-looking signs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/56 "2011-05-10T22:33:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 No, the experience of East Asia would suggest the opposite conclusion. Tokyo is New York with funny-looking signs. That impression leaves very, very quickly when you live there. East Asian countries have their own social system, family structure, business style, morals and values, spiritual beliefs, and way of looking at the world. While of course every individual has their own way of doing things and there are common things that unite us all, taken as a whole social life in East Asia is _extremely_ different than social life here. I never knew how vast differences could be until I lived in China. After two years of total immersion in the place (which looked pretty familiar- lots of high rises, fast food joints and even a WalMart) and I couldn’t so much as figure out who was supposed to pay for dinner. It’s totally possible to modernize without completely dismantling your culture. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/57 "2011-05-10T22:38:25Z")
I can’t imagine South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe without active, targeted support from the South African government (certainly above and beyond simply tolerating an individual’s tirade). Most people tend to view what happened in Zimbabwe as some spontaneous uprising by the poor and landless, when in reality it was a coordinated, government-backed initiative in which those taking back land received monthly payments, food and other supplies from the government. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/58 "2011-05-10T23:19:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > One point that should be emphasised - people often think that South African land issues are simply a matter of Blacks taking back all the land wherever they can. So they read about the successful land claims and figure that this is just a response to long-ago colonization. I think that this is what the OP was worried about. > [@](#): > > Except it’s not. Quite a lot of the land claims relate to land that was taken [in living memory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act). So the “Land that’s been in the (white) family for generations” bit is bullshit a lot of the time. Even land that’s been in the white family since 1955 is a long long time. That’s before my mom was born. (Damn. I just aged myself.) > [@](#): > > Another large component is[tribal land claims](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/15/southafrica.rorycarroll)\*. And that’s[not just](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca-Cayuga_Tribe_of_Oklahoma#New_York_land_claims) a South African phenomenon, now, is it? > > ] Well, [Reuters reported today](http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE7490BK20110510): > [@](#): > > JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - The South African government will reopen a claims process that compensates black families who were removed from their land under white rule to offer redress to those who failed to meet earlier deadlines. > > The programme has compensated people or families, usually with a cash sum, who were forcibly driven from their land under the 1913 Natives’ Land Act, which set aside the vast majority of arable land for whites. > \*\* > Most of the 80,000 claims that were made for restitution have been settled but a government spokesman said on Tuesday new ones would now be considered, including for people whose ancestors were uprooted before 1913.\*\* Sooo, this is what I have heard/read/seen on tv: 1. Paying whites fair price (subjective, really, when you talk about seizure of property) hasn’t worked well enough because 1.) The blacks don’t get big enough grants from the government and 2.) Whites don’t always want to sell, so 2. They started fixing prices 3. and maybe a ruckus will happen soon [Promised Land](http://www.pbs.org/pov/promisedland/land_reform.php) director says: > [@](#): > > Government has tended to blame intransigent white landowners for the slow performance of this program, but that is only a small part of the problem. then he continues > [@](#): > > “Claimants” refers only to those with verifiable legal claims to specific portions of land under the restitution program. T**he great majority of these claimants (who totaled approximately 80,000 individuals, families and community groups) settled for cash compensation**, so no land changed hands. A minority have gotten back their land — a total of 2.6 million hectares by 2009. In such cases the state has threatened some owners with expropriation (i.e., compulsory purchase at full market price), but it has only used its power to follow through on this threat in a handful of instances. This seems to be aggravated by the problem that new landowners [don’t always know how to farm](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/21/world/la-fg-south-africa-farms-20101121). 😕 > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > DAMN south Africa for doing to the whites what the whites did to them. > > Totally intolerable! How DARE those evil racist black African natives take their land back. The courageous Boers took that land and raped their women fair and square. > > \ Let me remind you that Boers isn’t = all white people. Kay? My cousin’s family is from Great Britain and they bought their land from a white guy, yes, but who knows what will happen now. I’m not denying that the situation in South Africa is horrible. I’m trying to see how these policies are going to affect the country positively. Land distribution under apartheid wasn’t just about some white people subjugating black people. Not _every_ white person was part of the government, and not _every_ white person was a conspirator here. So if I’m Joe Schmuel from Poland and I go to South Africa to flee the Nazis and I end up getting a farm and whatever, imagine how my children are going to feel when someone has a claim to it from before my arrival. Or even if I’m Sally Bell and I was born in South Africa and my parents have had this land since 1966. No one likes being displaced. This isn’t a defense of anything, just my head thinking, “This may not be a good idea.” I’m [just not convinced](http://www.economist.com/node/15022632?Story_ID=E1_TVDNNGPN) these policies are working so well. > [@](#): > > The murder rate on South African farms is striking. Since 1991, 1,650 people, most of them white farmers and their families, have been killed in more than 10,000 attacks. So now the ANC says they’re going to seize the land and pay people for it. Making that price fair is a little subjective. Redistribution is not about rights. It’s about race. So…yeah. I guess we’ll see how it goes. Does anyone know the per cent of land owned by corporations versus smaller farms? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/59 "2011-05-10T23:23:16Z")
add: I think of Boers as the Dutch, but if people in South Africa just think white = Boer now, then well, that makes your post doubly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/60 "2011-05-11T00:05:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > add: I think of Boers as the Dutch, but if people in South Africa just think white = Boer now, then well, that makes your post doubly wrong. “Boer” is generally synonymous with “Afrikaner”, when not used to literally mean “farmer” (and with the exception of some fringe people who make a distinction between those who went on the Great Trek and those who stayed in the Cape). By the way, the use of “Dutch” to refer to Afrikaners is archaic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=4)