# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/61 "2011-05-11T01:46:55Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Is it going to benefit the black population if South Africa goes the way of Zimbabwe? I don’t think it will. Getting rid of the white farmers would be bad for all South Africans. Of course not. There must be plenty of black farm hand-equivalents in the area who work for the white owners. Give the farms to them. That’s where Mugabe went wrong - he took the farms from the (real) African farm hands and gave it to his buddies. Mugabe is a flaming d-bag who screwed everything up; his cause of reclamation was initially quite good. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/62 "2011-05-11T01:51:31Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Let me remind you that Boers isn’t = all white people. Kay? My cousin’s family is from Great Britain and they bought their land from a white guy, yes, but who knows what will happen now. I’m not denying that the situation in South Africa is horrible. I’m trying to see how these policies are going to affect the country positively. > > Land distribution under apartheid wasn’t just about some white people subjugating black people. Not _every_ white person was part of the government, and not _every_ white person was a conspirator here. So if I’m Joe Schmuel from Poland and I go to South Africa to flee the Nazis and I end up getting a farm and whatever, imagine how my children are going to feel when someone has a claim to it from before my arrival. Problem is you got a farm that is basically land taken from the natives. Suppose some evil savage black invader (being facetious here) rapes and kills your wife, hangs you from a tree, and sells your kid into slavery, while taking your farm from you. How long do you propose this land remains in someone else’s hands before it is no longer fit to be recovered? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/63 "2011-05-11T02:02:22Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > How long do you propose this land remains in someone else’s hands before it is no longer fit to be recovered? How long do you propose? Shall all of the Americas be returned to the original immigrants from Asia? Shall all of Europe have its maps redrawn? Hand Japan back to the Ainu? Some things can and should be fixed; some can’t and shouldn’t. In general, I’ll accept living memory as a fair enough dividing line. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/64 "2011-05-11T02:08:23Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Problem is you got a farm that is basically land taken from the natives. > > Suppose some evil savage black invader (being facetious here) rapes and kills your wife, hangs you from a tree, and sells your kid into slavery, while taking your farm from you. How long do you propose this land remains in someone else’s hands before it is no longer fit to be recovered? I assume then that you support the Jews of Israel forcibly annexing the West Bank from the Arabs, as this land was once called Judea and Samaria and it was originally a Jewish kingdom. I assume you are also OK with Manhattan being forcibly seized by the Native Americans who it was “bought” from. I assume you are OK, also, with Rhodesian expatriates going back to Rhodesia with a small mercenary contigent and forcibly taking back the land that was once their families’ from the blacks who Mugabe gave it to after murdering and raping the whites who lived there who had in fact been there since 1899. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/65 "2011-05-11T03:43:54Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Of course not. There must be plenty of black farm hand-equivalents in the area who work for the white owners. Give the farms to them. > > That’s where Mugabe went wrong - he took the farms from the (real) African farm hands and gave it to his buddies. Mugabe is a flaming d-bag who screwed everything up; his cause of reclamation was initially quite good. Yes and I’m sure this will be done without any corruption on the part of the government. Plus farm labour and farm management are two different animals and what if the farm labourers wish to work under a reasonable wage from the owner? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/66 "2011-05-11T05:04:40Z")
South Africa is a reasonably well-functioning democracy. It is also full of people who are not exceptionally stupid- they can see the difference between Botswana and Zimbabwe. It’s absurd to think that people would abandon all of that sheerly out of spite. It’s not like Zimbabwe were a variety of cold war alliances are at play- North Korea, for example, is not going to be a player. It’s a totally different situation. I’ve got plenty to learn, but from what I know now, it seems that South Africa is genuinely trying to craft a modern country out of the mess they’ve got. People want this to work. There are serious tensions and the vast inequalities make it difficult, but people want to get this figured out and move forward towards a bright future. If larger land reforms happen, it probably will not be a matter of redressing past wrongs, but rather about addressing the fact that large numbers of people are on unproductive land. This is a very real problem- imagine if the US had a large percentage of its populations living on reservations. It’s not sustainable, people need to have some access to a way to make a living besides migrant labor (which brings a host of social problems due to the breakdown of community.) Even without fairness or unfairness, when you’ve got a chunk of your population geographically consigned to poverty, you’ve got to find a way to fix that. ---
**Author:** ![Saffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saffer/32/6440_2.png) [@Saffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saffer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/67 "2011-05-11T09:44:56Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Problem is you got a farm that is basically land taken from the natives. > > Suppose some evil savage black invader (being facetious here) rapes and kills your wife, hangs you from a tree, and sells your kid into slavery, while taking your farm from you. How long do you propose this land remains in someone else’s hands before it is no longer fit to be recovered? Do you realise that the Bantus (the people reffered to as Black) did this to the Khoekhoe and San (the natives that were there before them). > **[Bantu peoples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples)** > > The Bantu peoples are an indigenous ethnolinguistic grouping of approximately 400 distinct native African ethnic groups who speak Bantu languages. The languages are native to countries spread over a vast area from West Africa, to Central Africa, Southeast Africa and into Southern Africa. Bantu people also inhabit southern areas of Northeast African states. > There are several hundred Bantu languages. Depending on the definition of "language" or "dialect", it is estimated that there are between 4... ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/68 "2011-05-11T14:02:51Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > “Boer” is generally synonymous with “Afrikaner”, when not used to literally mean “farmer” (and with the exception of some fringe people who make a distinction between those who went on the Great Trek and those who stayed in the Cape). By the way, the use of “Dutch” to refer to Afrikaners is archaic. I said “Dutch” as in, _descendents of_, or\* Afrikaners\* because I didn’t know if Afrikaners would be understood as such. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Problem is you got a farm that is basically land taken from the natives. > > Suppose some evil savage black invader (being facetious here) rapes and kills your wife, hangs you from a tree, and sells your kid into slavery, while taking your farm from you. How long do you propose this land remains in someone else’s hands before it is no longer fit to be recovered? This is what happened in the 1900s? and can you quote the right person? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes and I’m sure this will be done without any corruption on the part of the government. Sarcasm? :dubious: > [@even\_sven](#): > > South Africa is a reasonably **well-functioning** democracy. Now that I’d strongly argue against. > [@](#): > > If larger land reforms happen, it probably will not be a matter of redressing past wrongs, but rather about addressing the fact that large numbers of people are on unproductive land. Like I said – and others aren’t seeming to get – is land _restitution_ is different than land redistribution. What the government wants now is _land redistribution_. That’s based on skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/69 "2011-05-11T14:04:27Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Of course not. There must be plenty of black farm hand-equivalents in the area who work for the white owners. Give the farms to them. Except it doesn’t always work that way! _frustrated_ Just because you work on a farm does not mean you know how to _run_ a farm. How many of these farms have gone by the wayside? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/70 "2011-05-11T14:06:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I assume then that you support the Jews of Israel forcibly annexing the West Bank from the Arabs, as this land was once called Judea and Samaria and it was originally a Jewish kingdom. No, but most Israelis don’t want the West Bank. They want to be done with it and ‘divorce’ that relationship. I don’t support Palestinian claims of returning to old neighborhoods in Jerusalem, either. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/71 "2011-05-11T14:23:59Z")
But I wasn’t talking to _you,_ I was talking to **Le Jacquelope.** You seem like one of the few people here who actually recognizes South Africa for what it is - a complete disaster - instead of idealizing it as a glorious paragon of multiculturalism and an African “success” story which supposedly proves how much better off everyone is without evil Whitey running things. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/72 "2011-05-11T14:33:16Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But I wasn’t talking to _you,_ I was talking to **Le Jacquelope.** > > You seem like one of the few people here who actually recognizes South Africa for what it is - a complete disaster - instead of idealizing it as a glorious paragon of multiculturalism and an African “success” story which supposedly proves how much better off everyone is without evil Whitey running things. But this is a public message board and not PMs or the bathroom, so I interrupted. 😛 I was actually responding to you because I could see the counter-argument. 😃 eta: imho, what makes the country function in a way that ensures the best possible outcome without institutionalized discrimination is probably the best way to go. this is not the best way to go. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/73 "2011-05-11T14:53:05Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But I wasn’t talking to _you,_ I was talking to **Le Jacquelope.** > > You seem like one of the few people here who actually recognizes South Africa for what it is - a complete disaster - instead of idealizing it as a glorious paragon of multiculturalism and an African “success” story which supposedly proves how much better off everyone is without evil Whitey running things. 😕 Post-Apartheid South Africa isn’t a complete disaster. Apartheid South Africa was the disaster (Rhodesia too); that’s why both were utter failures and eventually collapsed. Currently South Africa does have some very big social problems they need to conquer (large part due to Apartheid era racist social engineering), but I don’t see South Africa collapsing either politically or economically. That’s simply just fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/74 "2011-05-11T14:54:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But I wasn’t talking to _you,_ I was talking to **Le Jacquelope.** > > You seem like one of the few people here who actually recognizes South Africa for what it is - a complete disaster - instead of idealizing it as a glorious paragon of multiculturalism and an African “success” story which supposedly proves how much better off everyone is without evil Whitey running things. Seriously, how is it a complete disaster? America is still dealing with the legacy of state-based slavery 150 years after the war that ended it. Slavery of this kind (albeit of a less extreme kind) only ended in South Africa less than 20 years ago. It’s early days yet to claim that the free South Africa is a complete disaster, or for that matter, a paragon of multiculturalism. Give it a bit more time. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/75 "2011-05-11T15:05:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You seem like one of the few people here who actually recognizes South Africa for what it is - a complete disaster - instead of idealizing it as a glorious paragon of multiculturalism and an African “success” story which supposedly proves how much better off everyone is without evil Whitey running things. Complete disaster? Have you even been there? South Africa is very far from being a complete disaster, it’s actually a fairly decent place all things considered, although I do see more risks than many. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I said “Dutch” as in, _descendents of_, or\* Afrikaners\* because I didn’t know if Afrikaners would be understood as such. Uh yeah mate, Dutch is Dutch, Afrikaaner is Afrikaaner. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Except it doesn’t always work that way! _frustrated_ Just because you work on a farm does not mean you know how to _run_ a farm. How many of these farms have gone by the wayside? Quite, but this is Jacqui, eh? I mean his threads speak for themselves. Why people engage him and the Commie escapes, but… > [@even\_sven](#): > > South Africa is a reasonably well-functioning democracy. I guess … for emerging markets, it’s not a horribly functioning one, but until real multipartism emerges, I would nuance this more. > [@](#): > > It is also full of people who are not exceptionally stupid- they can see the difference between Botswana and Zimbabwe. It’s absurd to think that people would abandon all of that sheerly out of spite. It’s not like Zimbabwe were a variety of cold war alliances are at play- North Korea, for example, is not going to be a player. It’s a totally different situation. Sorry this is pure idiocy. You have a queer American graduate school view with excessive belief in a specific rational cost-benefit analysis from a macro perspective, that people send countries off the cliff out of stupidity. It isn’t so. Zim went off the cliff because of Mugabe and that was WELL after the Cold War. Narrow interests, and jockeying for power can send countries down the rabbit hole right quick, regardless of whether they have a well trained, rational elite. See Ivory Coast for fuck’s sake. Their elite were and are largely among the most urbane and well trained in all West Africa, and the country went bloody nuts. Demogogues like our featured man can, under the right circumstances send places into dark spots right quick and our OP is right to be worried. Your argument - not the first time trotted out - is abstraction. > [@](#): > > I’ve got plenty to learn, but from what I know now, it seems that South Africa is genuinely trying to craft a modern country out of the mess they’ve got. People want this to work. There are serious tensions and the vast inequalities make it difficult, but people want to get this figured out and move forward towards a bright future. Yeah, many do. Some do not. Some want to grab what they can. Some don’t believe that it can be worked out. Others are very short term thinkers or are very bounded thinkers and think they can have the cake and eat it too. If those people can build enough momentum, they can take power - can happen in any country with fragile democratic traditions and unbalanced power sharing traditions. Germany post WWI, South Africa, Ivory Coast, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/76 "2011-05-11T15:08:10Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > 😕 Post-Apartheid South Africa isn’t a complete disaster. Apartheid South Africa was the disaster (Rhodesia too); that’s why both were utter failures and eventually collapsed. LOL, Rhodesia was a disaster? Are we living on the same planet? The place was an economic powerhouse. It was the “breadbasket of Africa.” It _exported_ food to the rest of the continent! Rhodesia did not “collapse”, it was bullied and sanctioned to death by Britain and America. [Over 30 percent of all pregnant women in South Africa are AIDS-infected.](http://aids.about.com/od/clinicaltrials/a/safrica_2.htm) It is the rape capital of the planet. It’s a fucking disaster. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/77 "2011-05-11T16:01:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > LOL, Rhodesia was a disaster? Are we living on the same planet? The place was an economic powerhouse. It was the “breadbasket of Africa.” It _exported_ food to the rest of the continent! Rhodesia did not “collapse”, it was bullied and sanctioned to death by Britain and America. Hell in the end even Apartheid South Africa pulled support, Rhodesia was a political and economic failure for all who could see it; majority rule was the only logical end. > [@](#): > > [Over 30 percent of all pregnant women in South Africa are AIDS-infected.](http://aids.about.com/od/clinicaltrials/a/safrica_2.htm) It is the rape capital of the planet. It’s a fucking disaster. Social problems like rape and a high AIDS rate are serious issues, but unlike during Apartheid times, democratic South Africa is working to fix problem issues (like a legitimate government would) like providing free HIV drugs to expecting mothers so that their children can be born healthy. This is the difference between failed states and others. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/78 "2011-05-11T16:03:29Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > LOL, Rhodesia was a disaster? It was, it was quasi fascist, racist and held black Africans in grinding inferiority for the mere colour of their skin. Excusing it with partial presentation of economic data - shall leave it to others to rebut - and running on about UK and USA bullying them is nothing better than excusing Nazi Germany about being “hemmed in” while rambling on about the wonderful things they did with the trains. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/79 "2011-05-11T16:20:16Z")
Ok, then by your definition, post-war America until the Civil Rights movement was also a disaster. Look, I’m not trying to _advocate_ Rhodesia’s system of racial inequality. But I think sometimes people make it out to be more severe than it actually was. There were commissioned black officers in Rhodesia’s army and educated blacks in universities (I think I recall reading that the _majority_ of students in the University of Rhodesia were black.) And blacks had a pretty high standard of living there, arguably better than they had in South Africa. The answer was to give the Rhodesian state time to work out its racial issues _just like the United States did_ just ten years prior to Rhodesia’s dismantling - instead the state, which was stable and economically sound, was just torn town and replaced with black rule right away, which quickly became not black rule but Robert Mugabe rule. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/80 "2011-05-11T16:29:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I assume then that you support the Jews of Israel forcibly annexing the West Bank from the Arabs, as this land was once called Judea and Samaria and it was originally a Jewish kingdom. Of course not! Give it back to the Phoenicians that the Jews took it from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=5)