# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/101 "2011-05-11T20:34:14Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Okay, it’s a “failure” because you are wearing these blinders (the same blinders that so many people have) where racial injustice is THE ABSOLUTE WORST EVIL THING EVER and _everything_ else is totally negated and unimportant. There happen to be worse things in the world than racism. Starving to death is worse than racism. Dying of AIDS is worse than racism. Shitting yourself to death with intestinal disease because there is no clean water is worse than racism. “Blinders?” Oh, I get it; you don’t think white/minority rule was a good enough reason for the “Rhodesian Africans” (and the rest of the World) to reject the government as illegitimate. I do (a government who clearly states that it’s working against your basic rights is illegitimate), but ultimately the **exact reason** why 95.5% of “Rhodesians” did not respect the authority of Mr. Smith is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > You realize that the United States was built upon the land of the Native Americans. Huge tribes, whole cultures and civilizations with societies and religions and languages were just pushed aside to make room for the white man. Does that mean that America has also been a “failure”? If the US had 95.5% of it’s populace as “natives” to be forced onto reserves. Yeah, it’d be a **complete** failure. > [@](#): > > Again, you are looking at this with this unbelievably shallow one-dimensional “ZOMG RACISM” viewpoint. There are other factors to consider. Agriculture. Economic prosperity. Standards of living. Literacy. Education. All of these things were available to blacks in Rhodesia. It’s a _fact._ If they weren’t, thousands of blacks wouldn’t have volunteered to fight for the Rhodesian government. Blacks _were not drafted_ by the Rhodesian army. _Only_ white citizens were _ever_ drafted into the Rhodesian army. > > [Look](http://www.rememberrhodesia.com/site/wp-content/gallery/rhodesian-forces/fal_rhodesia2.jpg) for yourself at photos from the Rhodesian bush war of the Rhodie troops. They show black and white soldiers happily fighting alongside one another. The pictures do not lie. You seem to have found a photo with blacks and whites. Are they South African mercenariness? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/102 "2011-05-11T20:34:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Blacks [fought for the Apartheid government](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koevoet#Structure), too. Hell, there were a few Blacks in the Confederate Army, too. Janissaries and sepoys are not a new phenomenon. Yeah, and many South African Jews were active in the anti apartheid movement (and many still live there), but whatever. White isn’t as white does on StraightDope. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/103 "2011-05-11T20:36:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or having it romanticized for him, more like. > > There are a lot of people who fled both SA and Zimbabwe when they were no longer the privileged elite. They do tend to run off their mouths to anyone who is inclined to listen. “Whenwes”, we call them - “When we lived in Rhodesia…” is a never-ending refrain. I find “Actually, I think you mean Zimbabwe, you racist fuck” tends to shut them up. But sometimes their overactive whining mouths have already done the damage elsewhere. You act so callous towards these people, as if they aren’t human beings with lives and families who had homes and farms that they had lived in for generations. They aren’t “whenwes,” they are _refugees,_ except because they happen to have white skin instead of brown, you see fit to complete dismiss all of their experiences out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/104 "2011-05-11T20:36:10Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > “lack of relative democracy” 😕 The one-party movement never sat well for very long. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/105 "2011-05-11T20:37:42Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > seriously, though, it seems like we’re confusing _social_ and _economic_ success. South Africa has failed at both. Hypothetical Scenario 1: you live in a country with a top 25 per capita GDP and a 5% annual economic growth rate. 64% of your fellow citizens have red hair; redheads can’t vote, have average incomes 50% below those of non-readheads, and are routinely detained, beaten and killed by the police if they mention anything about politics. Hypothetical Scenario 2: other you lives in a country with a GDP 20% lower than in (1), with a 4% annual growth rate. Everyone can vote, and redheads, though still lagging somewhat, earn only 25% less than non-redheads. The crime rate is 5% higher. Where would you rather live? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/106 "2011-05-11T20:37:55Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You act so callous towards these people, as if they aren’t human beings with lives and families who had homes and farms that they had lived in for generations. They aren’t “whenwes,” they are _refugees,_ except because they happen to have white skin instead of brown, you see fit to complete dismiss all of their experiences out of hand. It’s apparently okay for him to be…um…well…to make blanket statements about white people. :dubious: (I don’t even know what ‘white’ is anymore.) dude, I don’t know if you/we/whatever are projecting or are just being practical, but I think that to us, _dying_ is the worst thing that can happen. everything else can be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/107 "2011-05-11T20:39:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hypothetical Scenario 1: you live in a country with a top 25 per capita GDP and a 5% annual economic growth rate. 64% of your fellow citizens have red hair; redheads can’t vote, have average incomes 50% below those of non-readheads, and are routinely detained, beaten and killed by the police if they mention anything about politics. > > Hypothetical Scenario 2: other you lives in a country with a GDP 20% lower than in (1), with a 4% annual growth rate. Everyone can vote, and redheads, though still lagging somewhat, earn only 25% less than non-redheads. The crime rate is 5% higher. > > Where would you rather live? You’re not understanding. South Africa as of May 11, 2011 is _not_ a success. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/108 "2011-05-11T20:40:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The one-party movement never sat well for very long. Whenever South Africans decided to vote out the ANC they will do so, that’s their choice. That’s true democracy, in it’s purest form. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/109 "2011-05-11T20:41:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > seriously, though, it seems like we’re confusing _social_ and _economic_ success. South Africa has failed at both. How has South Africa _failed_ at economic success, pray tell? I’d hardly call being 25th in the world _failing_ at something. Or having the best-performing currency against the dollar, worldwide, 3 years straight. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/110 "2011-05-11T20:42:01Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You’re not understanding. > > South Africa as of May 11, 2011 is _not_ a success. You have this strange notion that you can throw out unsupported subjective observations as if they were objective fact, and that once you do the debate ought to be settled. What are your criteria for success? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/111 "2011-05-11T20:42:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yeah, and many South African Jews were active in the anti apartheid movement And many _weren’t_. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/112 "2011-05-11T20:43:40Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You act so callous towards these people, as if they aren’t human beings with lives and families who had homes and farms that they had lived in for generations. They aren’t “whenwes,” they are _refugees,_ except because they happen to have white skin instead of brown, you see fit to complete dismiss all of their experiences out of hand. They were, or were party to, murdering subhuman filth, and they’ll get no sympathy from me. I’m talking about the ones who left when it became Zimbabwe, here, not the ones suffering the latest farm thefts, who i do feel some small measure of sympathy for. But since you were careful about calling it Rhodesia, I assumed that’s what you wanted to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/113 "2011-05-11T20:44:37Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > He’s talking about government, crime, poverty, and a global economy. Okay? I’d prefer to comment on what he actually said, not your interpretation. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think they should abandon all of the evil white man’s inventions, starting with air conditioning. Next, the telephone, the computer, the internet, the automobile, and so on and so forth. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > LOL, Rhodesia was a disaster? Are we living on the same planet? The place was an economic powerhouse. It was the “breadbasket of Africa.” It _exported_ food to the rest of the continent! Rhodesia did not “collapse”, it was bullied and sanctioned to death by Britain and America. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Look, I’m not trying to _advocate_ Rhodesia’s system of racial inequality. But I think sometimes people make it out to be more severe than it actually was. […] > > The answer was to give the Rhodesian state time to work out its racial issues _just like the United States did_ just ten years prior to Rhodesia’s dismantling - instead the state, which was stable and economically sound, was just torn town and replaced with black rule right away, which quickly became not black rule but Robert Mugabe rule. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Look](http://www.rememberrhodesia.com/site/wp-content/gallery/rhodesian-forces/fal_rhodesia2.jpg) for yourself at photos from the Rhodesian bush war of the Rhodie troops. They show black and white soldiers happily fighting alongside one another. The pictures do not lie. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Or maybe he’s just not romanticizing the recent past? 😕 I’m not romanticizing the state of South Africa or Zimbabwe. They’re both fucked up. This stuff about ‘Rhodesia was stabbed in the back’ and ‘look at the picture of the happy soldiers,’ on the other hand, is clearly a romanticized picture of the past of those countries. The soldier comment is totally naive. It’s one thing to discuss the trade offs that have taken place. But the underlying idea is that oppressive colonial racism is acceptable because it’s orderly and the people at the bottom rung (supposedly) were doing OK. That doesn’t reflect any understanding of what those people actually went through. It reflects rose colored glasses and a little bit of backlash against PC liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/114 "2011-05-11T20:46:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They were, or were party to, murdering subhuman filth, and they’ll get no sympathy from me. > > I’m talking about the ones who left when it became Zimbabwe, here, not the ones suffering the latest farm thefts, who i do feel some small measure of sympathy for. But since you were careful about calling it Rhodesia, I assumed that’s what you wanted to talk about. I think you’ve pretty much established your credentials here. Thanks for that post. It sums up your outlook very well. You can’t control where you’re born, you know. You can’t control who your parents are. I don’t think that _you_ are subhuman because you happened to be born black. I don’t think that a Rhodesian is subhuman because he happened to be born in Rhodesia. Like it or not, there were human beings _born_ into Rhodesian society who were not oppressing anyone, they were just trying to live their lives and work their farms. The majority of people in the former Rhodesia are obviously just like you, which is why they’re complicit in _white farmers_ being raped and killed. Us versus them. Tribalism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/115 "2011-05-11T20:55:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think you’ve pretty much established your credentials here. Thanks for that post. It sums up your outlook very well. just like you summed up yours when you started talking about “Rhodesia” > [@](#): > > You can’t control where you’re born, you know. You can’t control who your parents are. But you can control what you do. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that _you_ are subhuman because you happened to be born black. I’m not Black. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that a Rhodesian is subhuman because he happened to be born in Rhodesia. Neither do I. Read for comprehension. A Whenwe isn’t just any old ex-Rhodesian. > [@](#): > > Like it or not, there were human beings _born_ into Rhodesian society who were not oppressing anyone, they were just trying to live their lives and work their farms. By continuing to live unchallenging in a White-majority state, they \*were \*oppressing people. > [@](#): > > The majority of people in the former Rhodesia :rolleyes: Keep calling it “former Rhodesia”, it \*really \*changes my picture of you. > [@](#): > > are obviously just like you, which is why they’re complicit in _white farmers_ being raped and killed. Us versus them. Tribalism. I like to think of it as “right-thinking humans against subhuman scum”, but then, you know very well I’m \*not \*condoning rape and murder. “I have no sympathy for racist whiners” =/= “I like cheering on racist murderers/rapists”. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/116 "2011-05-11T21:01:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By continuing to live unchallenging in a White-majority state, they \*were \*oppressing people. So what the hell should they have done? Deliberately cut their own throats? You know damn well that nobody on earth is going to willingly vote _against_ their own interests. When you put quotes around Rhodesia, you are saying the country has no right to exist, that it’s not a real country. I want to know if you feel the same way about the United States, which was built over the land of Native Americans who were pushed from their homes, driven off, and in many cases, outright killed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/117 "2011-05-11T21:03:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You know damn well that nobody on earth is going to willingly vote _against_ their own interests. If that was true, then women, minorities, and people who don’t own property would not be able to vote in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/118 "2011-05-11T21:03:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > When you put quotes around Rhodesia, you are saying the country has no right to exist, that it’s not a real country. Since no foreign government had recognized Rhodesia, it wasn’t a real country. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/119 "2011-05-11T21:10:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You have this strange notion that you can throw out unsupported subjective observations as if they were objective fact, and that once you do the debate ought to be settled. I’m sorry? 1. Failed land reform. 2. Control of the ANC and the huge bureaucracy that helped crush the above. 3. Crime and [rising AIDS rates](http://www.avert.org/aidssouthafrica.htm). And don’t even preach about how well the government is handling it. It ignored AIDS for so long (remember Mbeki?). Treatment is so hard to access. 4. If one can’t be a super player in the global market (not counting diamonds that you don’t own anymore - rather unfortunate and should be remedied) that serves the population, you\* should\* have a degree of sustainability. The Swiss are truly remarkable. They have stellar literacy rates, great social programs and somehow don’t need to manage an army! Damn. But since most of us don’t have that kind of luck, your success is going to correlate with your global power. Do you know often I see South Africa on TV? Aside from movies, it’s usually around AIDs awareness week. 5. Dare I say economy? I think I already said that. But domestic economy? How’s that working out right now? Twenty five per cent unemployed? Yeah, GDP can be xyz percent or maybe South Africa seems to be doing OK on its dollar, but how is that sustainable? Look at education, poverty, crime, disease. 6. Lack of legitimacy on the global front. Look, I’m one of those who think the reasons why America managed to be so successful in her first 150 years is because it grew (geographically) over time. But in South Africa, you’re talking about nearly fifty million people with a short life expectancy. Is South Africa a failure? I’d call it a work in progress…one that may be on the wrong path. Donno. We’ll see what this government cooks up. But kicking white folk out isn’t the short answer. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And many _weren’t_. What’s your point? You don’t seem to differentiate between one white guy from another. Kind of hard to call that enlightened, intellectual, or logical. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/120 "2011-05-11T21:12:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If that was true, then women, minorities, and people who don’t own property would not be able to vote in the U.S. And said people only got suffrage because those in power decided it was in the best interest. Tis how power works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=7)