# Will South Africa go the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248 "2011-05-09T09:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/121 "2011-05-11T21:19:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So what the hell should they have done? Deliberately cut their own throats? Moving to majority rule is only “cutting your own throat” if you are selfish, uncaring, tribalistic and generally not a nice fucking person. > [@](#): > > You know damn well that nobody on earth is going to willingly vote _against_ their own interests. Huh. Turns out they just made it worse for themselves. If there hadn’t been UDI and the Bush War, if instead, the White Rhodesians had been content to share (like fucking preschoolers can share) I doubt things would have gone the way they did. > [@](#): > > When you put quotes around Rhodesia, you are saying the country has no right to exist, that it’s not a real country. Heads up - IT"S NOT!! Zimbabwe is a real country, and Rhodesia _didn’t_ have a right to exist, _because it was a racist undemocratic police state run by plague-bearing murderers._ Good riddance, may North Korea and Saudi Arabia and all others go the same way. > [@](#): > > I want to know if you feel the same way about the United States, which was built over the land of Native Americans who were pushed from their homes, driven off, and in many cases, outright killed. I have no love for the United States, no. But _that’s_ not why, the current US certainly seems to be trying to make up for the past. It doesn’t \*still \* actively oppress the Native Americans by government action, to the best of my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/122 "2011-05-11T21:25:21Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > And said people only got suffrage because those in power decided it was in the best interest. Only he just said that would never happen: > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You know damn well that nobody on earth is going to willingly vote _against_ their own interests. When non-property owners got the vote, people who owned property had less power. When women got the vote, men had less voting power. When the rights of black voters were guaranteed in a real way, they took part of the voting power whites and others had had. You’re welcome to try to convince me that each of those groups decided it was in their own best interest to give up a significant chunk of their ability to enforce their interests, but I don’t think you’re going to succeed. It probably served the interest of justice and fairness much more than it served their interests. In any case the example still disproves what **Argent Towers** said. If the U.S. could do it, the white people in Rhodesia could have done it. They didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/123 "2011-05-11T21:28:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > .Heads up - IT"S NOT!! Zimbabwe is a real country, and Rhodesia _didn’t_ have a right to exist, _because it was a racist undemocratic police state run by plague-bearing murderers._ Good riddance, may North Korea and Saudi Arabia and all others go the same way. Yeaaaaaaaaaah. But we still call pre-new England parts of the U.S. ‘colonies’. “Territories” are pre-statehood areas that weren’t’ part of the 13. And pre-Israel is “British Mandate” (less “Palestine” now because it’s confusing and the terms and people mean two totally different things). It’s a designation that indicates a specific period in time or a government. Kind of like “Czarist Russia” or “USSR”. > [@](#): > > I have no love for the United States, no. But _that’s_ not why, the current US certainly seems to be trying to make up for the past. It doesn’t \*still \* actively oppress the Native Americans by government action, to the best of my knowledge. You can not love the U.S., but you benefit. Anyway, the U.S. does oppress Native Americans. Water rights is the first thing that comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/124 "2011-05-11T21:33:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m sorry? > > 1. Failed land reform. > 2. Control of the ANC and the huge bureaucracy that helped crush the above. > 3. Crime and [rising AIDS rates](http://www.avert.org/aidssouthafrica.htm). And don’t even preach about how well the government is handling it. It ignored AIDS for so long (remember Mbeki?). Treatment is so hard to access. > 4. If one can’t be a super player in the global market (not counting diamonds that you don’t own anymore - rather unfortunate and should be remedied) that serves the population, you\* should\* have a degree of sustainability. The Swiss are truly remarkable. They have stellar literacy rates, great social programs and somehow don’t need to manage an army! Damn. But since most of us don’t have that kind of luck, your success is going to correlate with your global power. Do you know often I see South Africa on TV? Aside from movies, it’s usually around AIDs awareness week. > 5. Dare I say economy? I think I already said that. But domestic economy? How’s that working out right now? Twenty five per cent unemployed? Yeah, GDP can be xyz percent or maybe South Africa seems to be doing OK on its dollar, but how is that sustainable? Look at education, poverty, crime, disease. > 6. Lack of legitimacy on the global front. 1. It’s only been 20 years. Rome wasn’t built in a day. 2. What, exactly, is wrong with the ANC? It was almost solely responsible for the end of apartheid. That sort of goodwill goes a long way. 3. Yes, that’s a problem - but since nobody else has managed to figure out AIDS, it’s a bit unfair to lambast a developing economy for not doing it. 4. I don’t have the slightest fucking clue what you’re talking about here. It’s a failed state because you don’t see it on TV? Really? How often do you hear about Switzerland on TV? How about Belgium? Malaysia? New Zealand? 5. Look at them and… what? It’s not a particularly rich country, sure. Perhaps you forget that it was under UN sanctions for 30-odd years? 25% unemployment? Education? Well, of course; the government is still rebuilding a segregated school system that wasn’t very good to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/125 "2011-05-11T21:33:17Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You can not love the U.S., but you benefit. Anyway, the U.S. does oppress Native Americans. Water rights is the first thing that comes to mind. **MrDibble** is not American. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/126 "2011-05-11T21:39:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m sorry? > > 1. Failed land reform. Failed _how_? the process is still ongoing. > [@](#): > > 1. Control of the ANC and the huge bureaucracy that helped crush the above. Huh? The ANC is behind the land reform stuff, _mostly_. And where not, they don’t have it their way, see my earlier post. > [@](#): > > 1. Crime and [rising AIDS rates](http://www.avert.org/aidssouthafrica.htm). Crime is decreasing. So’s HIV rates > [@](#): > > And don’t even preach about how well the government is handling it. It ignored AIDS for so long (remember Mbeki?). Treatment is so hard to access. Treatment is free. Call me when that’s the case elsewhere. > [@](#): > > 1. If one can’t be a super player in the global market (not counting diamonds that you don’t own anymore - rather unfortunate and should be remedied) Fucking diamonds? You have to be joking! Think chrome, steel, platinum, rare earths. South Africa is a frigging resource powerhouse. Diamonds are so last century. > [@](#): > > that serves the population, you\* should\* have a degree of sustainability. The Swiss are truly remarkable. They have stellar literacy rates, great social programs and somehow don’t need to manage an army! Errrm, you’re aware that \*every \*adult Swiss is in the Army, right? The manage one just fine. > [@](#): > > Damn. But since most of us don’t have that kind of luck, your success is going to correlate with your global power. Do you know often I see South Africa on TV? Aside from movies, it’s usually around AIDs awareness week. How often do you see Liechtenstein? That’s a stupid criterion to judge a country by. > [@](#): > > 1. Dare I say economy? I think I already said that. But domestic economy? How’s that working out right now? Twenty five per cent unemployed? So what? The unemployment % doesn’t mean the same thing here as it does in the States or Europe with our large informal sector(and hey, how’re some of those economies doing, anyway? Spain? Portugal? Greece? Macedonia? Kosovo? Bosnia?) > [@](#): > > Yeah, GDP can be xyz percent or maybe South Africa seems to be doing OK on its dollar, but how is that sustainable? Look at education, poverty, crime, disease. Up, down, down, down since Apartheid ended. > [@](#): > > 1. Lack of legitimacy on the global front. Tell that to [Brazil, Russia, India and China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS) Mostly, I’m reminded of the humans in _Animal Farm_ who kept going on about how the animals were starving and wouldn’t last a season… > [@](#): > > But kicking white folk out isn’t the short answer. _No-one_’s kicking white folk out. There are at least 3 other Cape Town dopers, and they’re all White and they’re all here. Ask **grimpixie** why he came back from the UK, or ask \*\*ctnguy \*\*why he’s still here. > [@](#): > > You don’t seem to differentiate between one white guy from another. I can differentiate just fine. And I do that based on behaviour. One of my best friends is ex-Zimbabwean. Dad lost his farm in the recent troubles, too. But I would never call her a Whenwe or anything like that. You know why? Because \*she \*isn’t a racist apologist and knows the previous regime was evil. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/127 "2011-05-11T21:48:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yeaaaaaaaaaah. But we still call pre-new England parts of the U.S. ‘colonies’. “Territories” are pre-statehood areas that weren’t’ part of the 13. I don’t. I call them “states” (or “commonwealth” where that applies) > [@](#): > > And pre-Israel is “British Mandate” (less “Palestine” now because it’s confusing and the terms and people mean two totally different things). But you don’t call it that now, and “British Mandate of Palestine” _shouldn’t_ have existed any more than Rhodesia. > [@](#): > > It’s a designation that indicates a specific period in time or a government. Kind of like “Czarist Russia” or “USSR”. I’m aware of this, and I, myself, have used Rhodesia in that sense many times in this thread alone. But saying “the former Rhodesia” rather than “Zimbabwe” is just confrontational and, frankly, patronizing, bullshit. At best. > [@](#): > > You can not love the U.S., but you benefit. No. I don’t. My life, and those of my countrymen, has been made measurably worse by the direct activities of the United States and its agents in its misguided proxy wars. > [@](#): > > Anyway, the U.S. does oppress Native Americans. Water rights is the first thing that comes to mind. Well, there’s no reason to sound all proud of it.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/128 "2011-05-11T21:50:44Z")
Just to chime in with regard to kicking white folks out. I know some temporary and permanent migrants to South Africa from here who absolutely love it over there. To a European at least, South Africa has a buzz about it right now. The 2010 Soccer World Cup was held in South Africa. That in itself refutes CitizenPained’s point #6. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/129 "2011-05-11T22:29:54Z")
I’d like to clarify the use of “whenwe”, as some people seem to have misunderstood. It refers (in the case of Zimbabwe) to those who left in the early 80’s because of the onset of majority rule. Not to those who were driven out in more recent years because of actual adverse action by Mugabe’s regime. MrDibble is not acting callously to those people. > [@MrDibble](#): > > ask \*\*ctnguy \*\*why he’s still here. I suppose I should admit that I’m planning to go to Europe next year to do my PhD. But that’s because there’s no-one in this country who could supervise it, and I do plan to return. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/130 "2011-05-11T23:07:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 1. It’s only been 20 years. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Like I said. Work in progress. > [@](#): > > 1. What, exactly, is wrong with the ANC? It was almost solely responsible for the end of apartheid. That sort of goodwill goes a long way. Republicans are the party of Lincoln…? > [@](#): > > 1. Yes, that’s a problem - but since nobody else has managed to figure out AIDS, it’s a bit unfair to lambast a developing economy for not doing it. I’m pointing out the failure to address and then properly deal with the issue. > [@](#): > > 1. I don’t have the slightest fucking clue what you’re talking about here. It’s a failed state because you don’t see it on TV? Really? How often do you hear about Switzerland on TV? How about Belgium? Malaysia? New Zealand? I was trying to highlight the image. Sorry. No need to get all fucking mouthy. > [@](#): > > 1. Look at them and… what? It’s not a particularly rich country, sure. Perhaps you forget that it was under UN sanctions for 30-odd years? 25% unemployment? Education? Well, of course; the government is still rebuilding a segregated school system that wasn’t very good to begin with. Dems de facts, is all. > [@orcenio](#): > > **MrDibble** is not American. And he still benefits. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t. I call them “states” (or “commonwealth” where that applies) Really? I’m history teacher and I don’t tell my students that the Louisiana Purchase was, you know, the state of Louisiana. 😕 I most certainly don’t reference Texas pre-war as “the state of Texas”. 😕 > [@](#): > > But you don’t call it that now, and “British Mandate of Palestine” _shouldn’t_ have existed any more than Rhodesia. But it did. For a long time. And the Ottoman Empire once existed, too. They are points of reference. btw, I call “Burma” _Myanmar_ in casual conversation, but reference _Burma_ when I’m talking about it to a general audience. I say “UK” when I mean the UK and I say “Great Britain” when I mean GB. I also say “Northern Ireland” when appropriate… > [@](#): > > I’m aware of this, and I, myself, have used Rhodesia in that sense many times in this thread alone. No doubt. > [@](#): > > But saying “the former Rhodesia” rather than “Zimbabwe” is just confrontational and, frankly, patronizing, bullshit It is if you **have** to take it that way. I wouldn’t call Zimbabwe “the former Rhodesia” when speaking to a friend of mine from Zimbabwe…unless we were talking about it _in context_. > [@](#): > > At best.No. I don’t. My life, and those of my countrymen, has been made measurably worse by the direct activities of the United States and its agents in its misguided proxy wars.Well, there’s no reason to sound all proud of it.:rolleyes: What is that you’re typing from again? 😕 > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Just to chime in with regard to kicking white folks out. I know some temporary and permanent migrants to South Africa from here who absolutely love it over there. To a European at least, South Africa has a buzz about it right now. The 2010 Soccer World Cup was held in South Africa. That in itself refutes CitizenPained’s point #6. I’d love to go kick it in South Africa. I’ve been in \<3 with South Africa since high school. That doesn’t mean the rest of the world sees the country as having any kind of power or the government as being ‘legitimate’ in a political sense. I’m not saying that the current government wasn’t elected - but when you have a guy (Mbeki) denying the very obvious (like seeking the company ofAIDS denialists) its hard to take it seriously. Kind of like when Ahmadinejad was going on about how the Holocaust was a hoax. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/131 "2011-05-11T23:07:31Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > The 2010 Soccer World Cup was held in South Africa. That in itself refutes CitizenPained’s point #6. On the other hand it exposed the world to the vuvuzela, which is clearly the product of an evil regime. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/132 "2011-05-11T23:08:27Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Just to chime in with regard to kicking white folks out. I know some temporary and permanent migrants to South Africa from here who absolutely love it over there. To a European at least, South Africa has a buzz about it right now. The 2010 Soccer World Cup was held in South Africa. That in itself refutes CitizenPained’s point #6. also, I have friends who LOVE Mexico. Mexico is like the new retirement destination. It’s gonna put those old folks’ homes in Florida out of business! Yah. It doesn’t mean that Jaurez is where it’s at. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/133 "2011-05-11T23:15:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > And he still benefits. This is hard to take seriously. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean the rest of the world sees the country as having any kind of power or the government as being ‘legitimate’ in a political sense. I’m not saying that the current government wasn’t elected - but when you have a guy (Mbeki) denying the very obvious (like seeing AIDS denialists) its hard to take it seriously. You’re misusing the word, then. “Legitimate” has a specific meaning that does not resemble the way you’re using it right now. The international community recognizes that the government in South Africa is legitimate. What you’re talking about is respect, I think. Mbeki didn’t get much respect because his stance on AIDS was batshit insane. That doesn’t mean his government was not legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/134 "2011-05-11T23:29:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re misusing the word, then. “Legitimate” has a specific meaning that does not resemble the way you’re using it right now. The international community recognizes that the government in South Africa is legitimate. What you’re talking about is respect, I think. Mbeki didn’t get much respect because his stance on AIDS was batshit insane. That doesn’t mean his government was not legitimate. Fine. There’s _legit_ and there’s _take seriously_. There’s also _legitimate government_ as in one you deal with or recognize and then there’s _legitimate_ in the Lockean sense. The apartheid government wasn’t _legit_ since it clearly violated rights and for a revolution, but the apartheid government was _legit_ in the sense that it was the recognized government. Now the new government is sliding into dangerous territory. Is the ANC still legit or is it just failing? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/135 "2011-05-11T23:41:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > also, I have friends who LOVE Mexico. Mexico is like the new retirement destination. It’s gonna put those old folks’ homes in Florida out of business! > > Yah. It doesn’t mean that Jaurez is where it’s at. Except the people I’m talking about aren’t retirees who can live in a place somewhat innoculated from the economic status quo, they’re young, ambitious workers. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/136 "2011-05-12T00:03:45Z")
but since they don’t represent anyone who deals with South Africa’s government, they’re not part of this equation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/137 "2011-05-12T05:57:40Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > I suppose I should admit that I’m planning to go to Europe next year to do my PhD. But that’s because there’s no-one in this country who could supervise it, and I do plan to return. Fair dos - we might do the same if the wife \*ever \*settles on a topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/138 "2011-05-12T06:16:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Republicans are the party of Lincoln…? And Nixon and Reagan and Bush… See, there is a point at which the goodwill runs out. > [@](#): > > Really? I’m history teacher and I don’t tell my students that the Louisiana Purchase was, you know, the state of Louisiana. 😕 I most certainly don’t reference Texas pre-war as “the state of Texas”. 😕 > But it did. For a long time. And the Ottoman Empire once existed, too. They are points of reference. > btw, I call “Burma” _Myanmar_ in casual conversation, but reference _Burma_ when I’m talking about it to a general audience. I say “UK” when I mean the UK and I say “Great Britain” when I mean GB. I also say “Northern Ireland” when appropriate… > No doubt. > It is if you **have** to take it that way. I wouldn’t call Zimbabwe “the former Rhodesia” when speaking to a friend of mine from Zimbabwe…unless we were talking about it _in context_. And that has fuck-all to do with the context here - the context being **Zimbabwe**. It’s like talking about political trouble in, I don’t know, Kosovo, and always refrain from mentioning the word and insisting on calling it “the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija” as much as possible. It’s a political statement. A telling one. > [@](#): > > What is that you’re typing from again? 😕 A Chinese computer over the CERN-originated Web, carried over a European undersea cable, actually. Oh, sure, we use your ARPANET-originated protocols, so what? I used to drive a VW, does that mean I should be grateful to Hitler, too? > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean the rest of the world sees the country as having any kind of power or the government as being ‘legitimate’ in a political sense. \*\*How the fuck, exactly, is the South African government _not legitimate_? It is certainly a definite amount more legitimate than the previous US regime (installed by loaded court fiat). > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that the current government wasn’t elected - but when you have a guy (Mbeki) denying the very obvious (like seeking the company ofAIDS denialists) its hard to take it seriously. Kind of like when Ahmadinejad was going on about how the Holocaust was a hoax. :dubious: Or Bush was insisting Iraq had WMDs? Or anything to do with 9/11? Like that? Do you actually think Ahmadinejad \*believes \*what he says about Jews? But it doesn’t matter -see, the point about a \*real \*government, a “legitimate” government, is even if you \*do \*get someone like Mbeki, who is clearly in the wrong on a big issue (not that he didn’t have “scientific advisors” who told him he was right, so it’s not \*entirely \*his own fevered imagining), Mbeki _isn’t_ in charge now and the government has completely reversed its AIDS policy. See, that’s a real democracy in action - I’d say the AIDS issue was a big part of why Mbeki got ousted. So the system works. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/139 "2011-05-12T06:22:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Is the ANC still legit or is it just failing? Once again - ask the Brazilian, Russian, Indian and Chinese governments. Or the World Bank, or the UN, or FIFA, or any number of businesses that have no problem operating here. I don’t think you know what it means for a government to be “failing”. Or is the US a failed state, because it has plenty of political nutjobs worse than Mbeki or Zuma. One of them was in the running for VP not too long ago, you betcha. Or was the UK a failed state because the Labour government collapsed? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248/140 "2011-05-12T07:29:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > but since they don’t represent anyone who deals with South Africa’s government, they’re not part of this equation. Shifty McGoalposts anyone? My point was to address the idea that whites were being hounded out of the country. South Africa isn’t a demagogic, complete disaster, if it were, nobody (from Western Europe at least) would emigrate there. Think of, for example, Italy under Berlusconi. Berlusconi is seen outside of Italy as a egomaniacal, corrupt, sex-crazed buffoon, yet his country for all its problems sits amongst the more powerful and influential in the world. One dodgy leader in a democracy doesn’t cancel out everything else good and great about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-south-africa-go-the-way-of-zimbabwe/581248.md?page=8)