I realise you’re young, but believe me, 15 years is *not *“a fairly long period”.
There was steady growth from 1900s - early 1990s, then a dip (post '94) as all the racists left (or turned impotent with shock), and a mostly steady growth since. Bearing in mind that the White community is probably of a demographic maturity that it should be experiencing the demographic shift, really.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Is there a fourth?
[/QUOTE]
“Amongst our problems are poverty, AIDS, crime and the element of surprise…wait, I’ll come in again”
Brain drain *is *a problem, actually, but of course that ties into the others.
Hey now, democracy is an evolution. The South Africa apologists resist any attempt at criticism. Let’s face it: voting public is still a relatively ignorant one, but whatever the ANC can do to keep Whitey as the oppressor will work. The ANC has to change its tune.
I’m not the [only](Is South Africa a democracy?) one who thinks so.
But hey, its the Whites who are too sensitive about race issues. :dubious:
…
I predict more of the same rhetoric in light of recent DA gains.
16 years after majority rule Zimbabwe was also doing ok. It was only in 2000 when Mugabe started taking over the farms that things really went downhill. Isn’t the point of this thread is that some in SA are agitating for similar reforms and it might also turn out badly?
Well they had a civil war after independence in which thousands in the opposition party were massacred, then there was all of these protests by unions and such against the government (which were squashed) and then it just kept getting worse.
I guess they were sanctioned around the time of land restitution. Wonder if that’ll happen with SA.
In fact, MrDibble, and if you would kindly take the trouble for the sake of fighting the ignorance of us foreigners, this might be a good time for you to give us all a short capsule history, from your on-the-ground perspective, of SA since 1994. Just a few paragraphs.
Let’s see:
In most ways, change has been slow to come. Sure, in '94 we got the vote, and a instant black political elite. But the real change was in the lives of the less-fortunate. The ANC (and the DA where it is in charge) has actually been delivering on the promises of making sure everyone has access to housing, electricity and water. They’re not done yet, but 17 years is *not *a very long time to go from the truly dire situation people were in before liberation.
We have a decent constitution, and it’s stood us in good stead with getting things like gay rights and access to HIV treatment. While the Mbeki government was a disappointment there, the pace of (free!) ARV rollout has increased again.
The economy is doing better than it ever has done in my adult lifetime, at least.
People keep on about the crime levels, but it really doesn’t impact me, as far as that goes. I think it’s a freer media sector that has increased coverage of the crime, but the situation in the townships hasn’t actually changed much from the 80s, as far as I can tell. A lot of the high murder rate is also related to a combination of gangs and drugs, and as such is largely confined to the townships and council estates (ghettos, to foreigners). The much-too-high incidence of rape, too.
I don’t know what else to say, I can answer any specific questions.
Oh come on man, I agree that the crime thing is currently overplayed but the crime wave of the late 1990s early 200s was truly horrible and massively impacted the communities of black middle class in Joburg (as well as the whites, which is more usually underlined). You’re, pardon the expression, white washing that.
Yes, there was a “crime wave”. I have yet to find any credible evidence that it was any different from the immediately-pre’94 situation. I put it down to change in reporting, mostly.
I was* in* Joburg in the 90s. Never felt unsafe going in to the city on a Sat. night (by train! From the West Rand! Then walking from Park Station to the Doors, and beyond!). Me and 2 mlungus. I wouldn’t go into the townships then, though. Like the Wild West, Kagiso on a Saturday.
Not exactly, but getting better:
Murder rate fell from 66.9 per 100,000 people in 1994–95 to 37.3 per 100,000 in 2008–09, for instance.
Some rates show no sign of abating, though - rape and car hijackings, specifically. Although note that the infamous 1-in-4 figure is not, actually, a nationwide survey but quite regional (and not a peer review scientific survey, but an informal poll) - not that I, of all people, would dismiss the rape statistics, they’re horrific. But again, it’s situational, and generally restricted to really bad places, not a anywhere/everywhere phenomenon.
Bear in mind, a lot of the rape and other violent crimes are committed by quite young offenders - partly, it’s another legacy of the way AIDS and apartheid have completely fucked SA over. Both were responsible for creating an entire generation coming from broken homes, and living in abject poverty. I’ve met some young gangsters who were so … wrong, in terms of empathic responses. The only other people I’ve met like that were some Nigerian ex-child soldiers. Just completely broken, violent, sociopathic people.
But that’s not the ANC’s fault (for now). They’re dealing with the hand they’ve been dealt - not as best they can, looks like, but they could be doing a *lot *worse.
Our Nanny lives in Gugulethu and her brother lives in Khayelitsha, a little further out from the city. When we asked her recently about safety in the townships, she said that Gugulethu was perfectly safe, but Khayelitsha was much more dangerous, being “full of tsotsis”. Then she laughed and said that her brother would never come and visit her at her house because he thought that Gugulethu was not safe. Safety is largely about perception - I feel safe in areas that I know, and unsafe when I’m out of my comfort zone.
Grim
P.S. So I got interested, and looked up some stats - Khayelitsha is a little more dangerous in terms of murder and rape, but Nyanga which is geographically between the two is worse than either. Source(warning PDF)
Well, I can just tell you that myself and my black African (SA and region, Botswana) colleagues experienced a lot of crime, a jump up from before, and the colleagues also had carjacking near misses. And we had drivers - locals - who were afraid to park out at night.
That was no joke. But then perhaps you didn’t have the money of interest to be targeted. We did. Me in passage, that’s nothing to cry about. But for my black colleagues, they were bloody well scared and angry about Mbeki blowing off the situ.
While I disagree with Dibble on the past, I’d say it’s a lot better now. Vastly better. Nevertheless there is an overhang of fear in certain quarters (and here I am not thinking of white colleagues, but black middle class and the working class folks with us, drivers, etc).
I think it is a disservice to minimize the ongoing issue relative to impact locally - although same time it’s not as bad as the horror stereotypes from the late 1990s. Downtown Joburg for example is coming back.
I disagree, it was the ANCs fault to the extent that for a long while (not now) - like on the AIDs front, a certain class of ANCers did not take the crime seriously enough.
Nevertheless, I absolutely agree that they were dealt an enormously bad hand, and it was stunningly difficult to deal with that transition. Overall, it came out okay (is coming out okay?), but public crime situ was a dropped ball that could have been dealt with better, earlier - for the good of the black population in particular.