# Will teaching gay history create false history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953 "2006-05-23T20:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/21 "2006-05-24T20:25:15Z")
[QUOTE=Eve] How about “gay history?” It’s taught in schools how black people were enslaved and Jews were harrassed and murdered and American Indians were slaughtered and women were denied any legal rights–how abour teaching how gays have been burned and jailed and discriminated against for centuries, and why that’s _wrong?_ [/QUOTE] how about we just have a citizenship/society/civics class that explains what it means to be a responsible citizen and care for the people around us. How about we teach that violence and discrimination against anyone is wrong and letting the students find historical context themselves. I’m so sick of all this pointing towards race, creed, religion, sexual orientation crap. Just don’t discriminate. Period. Why do we need to we need to spell out each and every [current] social minority? It just leaves loopholes for the next one to come along and the wording needs to be rephrased. again. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/22 "2006-05-24T20:47:28Z")
I’m curious as to how they plan to implement this. I have no objections to homosexuals being included in history just so long as it is done responsibly. How important is the sexuality of some historical figures? I’m happy if students know Richard the Lionheart was the King of England and went to fight in the Crusades. It doesn’t really matter whether he was gay or not. Likewise I’m happy with students know what contributions Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin made to American History nevermind their sexual habits. I have a college level textbook that includes a “point of view” from someone who lived during that chapter. For example they have a point of view from a man named Yick Wo who challanged the city of San Francisco when they refused to grant business licenses to Chinese people in the 1880’s (I think) and his case went to the Supreme Court and he won. That seems to be a decent way to handle it. Even at the college level we don’t expect people in the basic history courses to know the sexual habits of most historical figures. Do we expect that kind of thing in high school? Marc ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/23 "2006-05-24T22:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Upgrading to Critical] \*\*Will teaching gay history create false history? \*\* [/QUOTE] Perhaps not, but it will cause a lot of confused adolescents to go gay. Which is the whole point! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/24 "2006-05-24T23:41:57Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] how about we just have a citizenship/society/civics class that explains what it means to be a responsible citizen and care for the people around us. [/quote] Because that’s not the same thing as “history.” > [@](#): > > I’m so sick of all this pointing towards race, creed, religion, sexual orientation crap. Why is it wrong to highlight the contributions of people from different groups? The history that’s taught in schools is not “neutral,” it’s predominantly white. Why not make it more complete by including what other groups of people brought to it? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/25 "2006-05-24T23:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Perhaps not, but it will cause a lot of confused adolescents to go gay. Which is the whole point! 🙂 [/QUOTE] Hush you! We can’t have everyone knowing the agenda! Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to undermine marriage and bring about the fall of western civilization. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/26 "2006-05-25T02:16:26Z")
Once again, for those who apparently haven’t read the bill linked above, it’s simply amending existing law, which stated that group a, b, c should not be written negatively about or ignored because of the fact that they belong to a, b, or c. The amendment simply added group d to the mix. It’s not “PC Police Gone Wild IV: Overzealous in California.” Again, [here](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1401-1450/sb_1437_bill_20060501_amended_sen.html) is the bill. For example, here’s one piece of the original: [QUOTE=Section 51204.5] Instruction in social sciences shall include the early history of California and a study of the role and contributions of both men and women, black Americans, American Indians, Mexicans, Asians, Pacific Island people, and other ethnic groups to the economic, political, and social development of California and the United States of America, with particular emphasis on portraying the role of these groups in contemporary society. [/QUOTE] Here is the text from the new bill [QUOTE=New version] Instruction in social sciences shall include the early history of California and an age-appropriate study of the role and contributions of both men and women, Black Americans, American Indians, Mexicans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and other ethnic groups, **and people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender** , to the economic, political, and social development of California and the United States of America, with particular emphasis on portraying the role of these groups in contemporary society. [/QUOTE] I’m not seeing anything to get worked up about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/27 "2006-05-25T02:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The history that’s taught in schools is not “neutral,” it’s predominantly white. [/QUOTE] Indeed and in truth. [Search | The University of Vermont | University of Vermont](http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/) ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/28 "2006-05-25T03:15:10Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] Even at the college level we don’t expect people in the basic history courses to know the sexual habits of most historical figures. Do we expect that kind of thing in high school? [/QUOTE] Your phrasing is not helpful, nor is it valid. This has nothing to do with historical figures’ “sexual habits”, it has to do with their identities as human beings. What we are doing now is hiding this information from students. Why not treat them with more respect? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/29 "2006-05-25T03:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Your phrasing is not helpful, nor is it valid. This has nothing to do with historical figures’ “sexual habits”, it has to do with their identities as human beings. [/quote] My apologies if the use of “sexual habits” was offensive but we don’t mention the heterosexuality of most historical figures either. The sexual orientation of Richard II, Abe Lincoln, or Teddy Roosevelt aren’t really all that important in the grand scheme of things. Especially when we’re talking about general history courses found through high school. It’s more important that we know who those people were and what they acomplished and I don’t really see how their sexual orientation matters in a general history course. > [@](#): > > What we are doing now is hiding this information from students. Why not treat them with more respect? I certainly agree that it shouldn’t be hidden. It’s just that given the limited amount of time schools have to teach history courses I’m not quite sure how much time they expect to spend on the subject. Are they just going to mention “oh, and Richard might have had an affair with the king of France” or will they go into even more depth? On a related topic I’m concerned about legislators dictating what historians will be putting into their books. It’s one thing to tell schools they need to have X amount of history and government classes but to dictate what will make the history books? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/30 "2006-05-25T03:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Indeed and in truth. [Search | The University of Vermont | University of Vermont](http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/) [/QUOTE] If it makes you feel any better they do teach most of the truths behind those laws in college courses. Marc ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/31 "2006-05-25T15:15:31Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Because that’s not the same thing as “history.” [/quote] I know. I meant in addition to history. Not replacing it. > [@](#): > > Why is it wrong to highlight the contributions of people from different groups? The history that’s taught in schools is not “neutral,” it’s predominantly white. Why not make it more complete by including what other groups of people brought to it? Its not wrong. I’m not arguing against that. I was alluding to the wording of the laws for equal protection. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/32 "2006-05-25T15:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Your phrasing is not helpful, nor is it valid. This has nothing to do with historical figures’ “sexual habits”, it has to do with their identities as human beings. What we are doing now is hiding this information from students. Why not treat them with more respect? [/QUOTE] Hiding or leaving out because of relevance? I would argue that if it explains certain policy decisions or reveals motivations of important historical context, then it should be included. However if you just start lumping it in as ‘knowing the historical person’ then why not include every suspected affair and spouse of everyone as well? I suggest leaving the indepth personal analysis to specialized classes in 2ndary and post-secondary eduaction and focus on the cold-hard actions/reactions in the primary. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/33 "2006-05-25T16:53:43Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] I know. I meant in addition to history. Not replacing it. [/quote] Ah. Some schools do have courses like that. > [@](#): > > Its not wrong. I’m not arguing against that. I was alluding to the wording of the laws for equal protection. The ‘equal protection’ part appears to say nothing more than "textbooks shouldn’t put people down because of their sexual orientation. > [@](#): > > Existing law prohibits the State Board of Education and the governing board of any school district from adopting textbooks or other instructional > materials that contain any matter that reflects adversely upon persons **because** of their race, sex, color, creed, handicap, national origin, or ancestry. > This bill would revise the list of characteristics included in these provisions to include race or ethnicity, gender, disability, nationality, sexual orientation, and religion. Bolding mine. And I have to say it’s fascinating that people are harping on ‘sexual orientation’ when it was included with a number of other issues. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/34 "2006-05-25T16:57:25Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The ‘equal protection’ part appears to say nothing more than "textbooks shouldn’t put people down because of their sexual orientation. [/quote] I don’t think I’ve evers seen a history book that put people down because of race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. in a public school. Do you perhchance know of any examples? > [@](#): > > Bolding mine. And I have to say it’s fascinating that people are harping on ‘sexual orientation’ when it was included with a number of other issues. Well the OP was about homosexuals in history so that might be why we’re discussing it. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/35 "2006-05-25T17:05:55Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] I don’t think I’ve evers seen a history book that put people down because of race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. in a public school. Do you perhchance know of any examples? [/quote] I don’t. But that is what the bill is about. > [@](#): > > Well the OP was about homosexuals in history so that might be why we’re discussing it. I meant people like the columnist quoted in the OP picking ‘gay history’ out of that list of groups, not people here responding to a thread about ‘gay history’ by talking about gay history. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/36 "2006-05-25T19:43:55Z")
Thanks Marley. Can anyone find any examples of history textbooks that put down historical figures based on race, religion, national origin that was used in California public schools within the last 20 years? Then again maybe we need to define what put down is. Is non-inclusion considered a put down? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/37 "2006-05-25T22:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] My apologies if the use of “sexual habits” was offensive but we don’t mention the heterosexuality of most historical figures either. [/QUOTE] Are you kidding? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/38 "2006-05-26T02:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] Are you kidding? [/QUOTE] No. Sometimes they don’t even mention that they were married unless it has some sort of relevance. Henry VIII, Lincoln, etc. but we never learned in high school that Rasputin or Ben Franklin were notorious womanizers. We never heard about Frederick the Great, Einstein, or Theodore Roozevelt’s wives. So yeah, for the most part they don’t really flaunt their heterosexuality in my experience. On the other hand everyone has some bias and it’s possible that my heterocentric has prevented me from noticing it. I tend to think everyone is straight until evidence shows me otherwise. I do not have anything against the inclusion of mentions of homosexuals in history books. I do have something against legislators dictating how historians should write books though. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/39 "2006-05-26T02:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] but we never learned in high school that Rasputin or Ben Franklin were notorious womanizers. [/QUOTE] Maybe not at your high school, but I definitely learned both. Hell, I learned about Franklin’s indescretions in seventh grade…at a CATHOLIC school. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953/40 "2006-05-26T04:44:22Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Maybe not at your high school, but I definitely learned both. Hell, I learned about Franklin’s indescretions in seventh grade…at a CATHOLIC school. [/QUOTE] I wonder how common that is. I know my single example certainly isn’t a big enough sample group to come to any conclusion. Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-teaching-gay-history-create-false-history/357953.md?page=3)