# Will the Anglican Communion schism over the ordination of Bishop Robinson? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750 "2003-08-08T03:39:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Curate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Curate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curate)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/21 "2003-08-17T01:26:19Z")
I attended a meeting today at my cathedral and I received a little more info on the agenda of the Plano meeting. The latest word here is that it’s officially an opportunity for AAC rectors to “network.” That’s a fuzzy term that I suppose could cover quite a few activities and the general consensus here is that the conference will likely end with a call for a seperate province. As to whether or not Archbishop Williams will agree to the idea, the sense here seems to be that he’s made supportive noises for such an arrangement. I haven’t been able to find any specific statements that would confirm or deny this but the assumption is that he won’t impede the process. One new wrinkle that I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread yet – at least a few dioceses have made arrangements to hold back the funds that they would normally be forwarding to the general church until the situation becomes a little clearer. I suppose a small number of dioceses withholding funds wouldn’t mean much in the short term, but if the movement becomes widespread then the general church might feel a pinch. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/22 "2003-08-17T01:39:13Z")
A fellow Episcopalian who’s on the opposite side of the debate than I, on another board, shared with me a fund-raising letter from the President of AAC, _written after General Convention_, that at least strongly implies they’re going to try to work within the established church structure if possible. That withholding of funds thing can go two ways, you know. If parishes and dioceses set a precedent, I can see parishes which disagree with their dioceses’ stance with the AAC against ECUSA doing that. I think it’s a dangerous weapon to break out just as yet, for either side. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/23 "2003-08-17T04:34:52Z")
I hope you will forgive a gentile for interrupting your discussion, but perhaps you could answer a question? I’ve read this thread with interest, but are there not already two American churches in the Anglican tradition? In my parent’s neighborhood in Atlanta is a church called St. Patrick’s Episcopal. Almost literally next door is another church called St. Barnabas’ _Anglican_ church. I assumed that the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta would not site two different congregations so close to one another, so they must represent two separate communions. But apparently not so. Can you explain? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/24 "2003-08-17T04:40:09Z")
The controversy in the late 1970s over the ordination of women and the rvision of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer resulted in a number of splinter groups, some of which adopted “Anglican” to specify that they were in the Anglican tradition but not part of the Episcopal Church. Raleigh has one; I presume that St. Barnabas’ is the same ilk. I think there are six separate splinter groups, of which the largest calls itself the Anglican Mission in America. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/25 "2003-08-17T04:59:04Z")
I am not an Episcopalian. I am not gay, either, if that matters. But I know that if I were gay, or an Episcopalian it would be hard to spend my spiritual efforts in praying for those who disagreed with me, and were threatening my expression of faith. But my faith is in the Lord Jesus, and He specifically told me to pray for my enemies. He told many parables about how little it showed love be kind to my friends. I should be seeking out the Samaritans, and finding the sinners, to make my love known to them. The part about telling my spiritual leaders exactly who to spend my charity on, and who to refuse it to chills my heart. What I have given away is no longer mine. I am freed of that burden by my charity. Those chains no longer bind me to the earth, unless I lay claim to them again. It breaks my heart to hear that someone stands in a church of my Lord, and suggests such a thing. Let us not sort ourselves out by sin. Let us join together in love. And let us give where there is need, not where we see justification. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/26 "2003-08-17T23:47:07Z")
Thanks, Polycarp. I really hope your church weathers this. Following Jesus is not easy, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/27 "2003-08-18T01:37:23Z")
As you can tell from the number of my posts in this and the other thread, this has been on my mind a lot lately and I’ve been distressed at both the results of the convention and the growing division in our church. However, two things happened this weekend in which I felt God speaking to me. First, I went on a short retreat with some young people from our church (mostly mid-20’s in ages). Most of them were men and I was told by one person that two of the men were a gay couple. I don’t know if it is true; nor do I care. But the person who told me said, “Isn’t it great that because of the stuff that happened at the convention, maybe gays who would not otherwise come will check out the church and hear the gospel?” And I sort of had an epiphany. Our church has always welcomed everyone; but I realized that that doesn’t mean anything if gay folks _think_ they’re not welcome. And thanks to the stuff played out in the media, some now have heard that they _will_ be welcomed. These guys on our retreat were not members of our church, but they came with us and had a good time and made friends. I hope they stick around. I realized that although I still consider what happened at convention to be a travesty, that God uses these kinds of thing to bring people to Him. Yeah God! The second thing that happened, and more related to this OP, was this morning in church. For the recessional we sang [The Church’s One Foundation](http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/h/chofound.htm). And I really took solace in this stanza: > [@](#): > > Though with a scornful wonder > Men see her sore oppressed, > By schisms rent asunder, > By heresies distressed: > Yet saints their watch are keeping, > Their cry goes up, “How long?” > And soon the night of weeping > Shall be the morn of song! So, I’m finally at peace with this whole gay Bishop/same-sex blessings/AAC vs ECUSA thing. I haven’t changed my opinions, but my distress is gone. Jesus is Lord; He is ultimately in control and He will be glorified no matter what happens. Whew, that’s a relief! ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/28 "2003-08-19T14:22:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Besides, how will you show them you’re in the right if not by standing firm for what’s right, but showing compassion to those opposed to you? " If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; _for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head_. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." \*\* If this is what the proponents of this Bishop’s ordination do, then this may very well be an act from Christ. If instead, those who support the act cry “Intolerance” and demand that no quarter be given and things be slammed through, then perhaps it is of Satan. By their fruits shall they be known. If their fruits are forebearance and gentleness with those who disagree, then their fruits are worthy. If their fruits are triumphalism and castigation, then I cannot say the same. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/29 "2003-08-21T20:56:11Z")
Interesting article today (well, I don’t know when it was posted exactly) at [http://www.communionparishes.org](http://www.communionparishes.org). The part I found most interesting: > [@](#): > > Although early reports suggested that a parallel province in north America could result from Dr Rowan Williams’s meeting of the Primates, which would enable conservative Episcopalians to disassociate themselves from the General Convention, this is likely to be rejected by conservative primates. > > Instead they are increasingly setting their minds against creating the ghetto of a third province for mainstream Anglicans in America and want to press for discipline. > > The first step would be stripping ECUSA of its right to vote and voice at Lambeth Conferences, Primates’ Meetings and the Anglican Consultative Council. Secondly, the Primates’ Meeting could recommend to the Archbishop of Canterbury that he “authorises and supports appropriate means of evangelisation, pastoral care and Episcopal oversight” in ECUSA. Finally, if the American Church persisted in its defiance of the views of the majority it could be expelled from the Anglican Communion and a new jurisdiction would then be recognised as a representative part of the Anglican Communion. The article goes on to talk about the reactions of various Anglican Primates to the events in the USA in the past month. I’m surprised that the authors of the article find expulsion of the ECUSA from the Anglican Communion to be such a distinct possibility. Has Anglicanism as a whole ever excommunicated a whole province? Does anyone here think there is a chance that this could happen? Disclaimer: I realize this is a conservative Anglican website, so I recognize their bias; I’m just wondering how realistic their analysis is. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750/30 "2003-08-25T13:55:10Z")
I’m curious to know if anyone heard the story [Episcopal Money](http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=1406905) on NPR’s _Morning Edition_ today. They talk about how many conservative churches in the ECUSA, which claim to be disproportionately larger and wealthier in the denomination, are withholding or planning to withhold money from the national church. I know my (large, wealthy) parish is planning the same thing. The story ends with > [@](#): > > [Donald Armstrong] and others say that if the leaders of the Episcopal Church think that the conservatives will eventually get over their anger and fall into line, they’re making a serious miscalculation. It’s unfortunate that, as the story points out, the financial victim here will not be the church leadership but the other churches and ministries supported by them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-anglican-communion-schism-over-the-ordination-of-bishop-robinson/193750.md?page=1)