# ...will the board consider explicit transphobia hate-speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 23, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204 "2019-10-23T23:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/181 "2019-10-27T11:15:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except there are people do EXACTLY that - they go on and on about the mystical connection of blood and talk about biological “facts” and the parent-child bond… it’s quite toxic. > > The difference? Their beliefs aren’t mainstream _at this point in time_. But that’s the whole point - that the main problem genre iconoclasts face is that they’re not mainstream… at this point in time. But _because_ adoption is mainstream at this time, it is a somewhat useful teaching tool in showing gender essentialism for the foolishness it is, especially when it comes to language. I know there are still some people who have very unusual ideas about adoption (we even have a notable one on this very board) but in the overwhelming majority of cases people, be they conservatives or progressives, are I think OK with adoption being normalized. So while I’m sure there exists some dark recess on the internet where Adoption Exclusive Radical Familists dwell and froth because, y’know, it’s the Internet ; you don’t see them plastered on the frontpage nor are their opinions given the time of day. There’s no peanut gallery of pundits on the telly complaining that adoptees are trying to erase REAL parents, or that they’re FORCING people to go along with their obvious and pathological delusions, or that they lie and are traps because they don’t disclose their shameful status of Other upfront whenever you meet them and muh right to choose not to associate with adoptees, nor think it scandalous that family consumer products are not explicitly marketed towards REAL BIOLOGICAL families, or that adoptive parents are included in PTA meetings and their kids go to school with NORMAL ones and how am I supposed to explain to my 4 year old CHILD that Becky’s mum isn’t, etc etc… The point is, you can reframe a ton of transphobic speech, ideas and catastrophizing fearmongering as “adoptophobic” and thereby illustrate their absurdity, or arbitrariness if you prefer. It’s… it’s really fine, guys. We can call adoptive children “children”. We do. Society hasn’t been OBLITERATED as a result. > [@](#): > > On the flip side - it seems the successful transitions aren’t well publicized - “person transitions to their identified gender, has happy life, well adjusted” isn’t catchy enough or something. Reminds me of Bill Hicks’ positive drug stories on the news bit - “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here’s Tom with the weather !” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Taesahnim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/taesahnim/32/84_2.png) [@Taesahnim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taesahnim)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/182 "2019-10-27T13:52:10Z")
FWIW, I did not find **Urbanredneck’s** post offensive or hateful. He might have phrased it a little better, but overall, he was correct. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/183 "2019-10-27T14:09:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And yes, I agree, that is unacceptable. > > But ever notice how it’s always a concern about “creating” trans women - apparently trans men aren’t scary. I think **Annoyed** is yet another case of castration anxiety being in control on the keyboard. It’s not that transmen aren’t scary–they don’t even exist for these people. In all the bathroom debates, the transphobic position never seems to even consider that they are mandating that transmen use the restroom with women, the exact thing they are freaking out about. And in the thread that started this mess, there are several posters that appear confused about who is objecting to the Venus symbol on the Always packaging: this is an issue where transmen feel excluded, but they are saying things that suggests that they think transwomen think they should somehow be included or something. MtF is the beginning and end of the issue for a lot of people. I don’t know if it’s fear of castration, or homophobia (what if I am attracted to someone who is “really” a man?) or just plain “the ‘male variant’ of anything is the only real or interesting one”, but it’s a constant pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/184 "2019-10-27T16:53:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Well, if I claimed to be a transgender man in a thread where we end up debating the validity of transgender identities, “Max, you’re not a real man!” could be appropriate, in my opinion. It’s pushing the envelope, and would have to be related to some argument, of course. You can’t call me a liar. I disagree. Directing the comment at Max makes it about the poster, not the post (ideas). Should be moderated as a personal attack. > [@Calavera](#): > > Using the term “transman” for F to M is and “transwoman” for M to F is begging the question, and it’s unreasonable to complain when people who don’t see it that way accidentally or deliberately confuse the terms. > > It would have been better to use a more neutral, unabiguous term like “Mattof” for Male to Female and “Fettom” for female to male. As it is, the terms they’re complaining about people not using already imply agreement with their opinion. No wonder the terms get “abused.” If it helps, just think “transitioning to man” and “transitioning to woman”. That’s basically your “Fettom” and “Mattof”. Also, the _whole point_ is to address them how they want to be identified, not as they were or by some ambiguous term. > [@Velocity](#): > > If someone says “men are men and women are women, and they cannot cross over to be the other,” that is not “disrespect”, but if someone calls Caitlin Jenner a “he,” that is? I would agree to that statement. One is a position statement, a description of belief, the other is a blatant attempt to disrespect (if intentional). How thoroughly that should be modded is a question. > [@TruCelt](#): > > Hate, ignorance, and fear are three separate conditions which are often found together or in pairs. If we can respond to the ignorance calmly, we can often lessen or even disintegrate the other two. That is supposed to be what this board is about. > > So I hope we will choose not to quell discussion. Obvious maliciousness can be addressed without lumping every mistaken idea into that category. Well said. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I think it’s hate speech. If someone doesn’t believe that transgenderism is a “real” thing, it seems to follow logically that they must believe people who identify as transgender are mentally ill. So making this statement in the context of a discussion where openly trans people are participating is basically saying “You’re batshit crazy and your most deeply held feelings aren’t real feelings, but psychotic hallucinations”. I don’t think posters should be allowed to address each other that way outside the Pit. That’s a lot of word projection. If someone _actually wrote_, “You’re batshit crazy and your most deeply held feelings aren’t real feelings, but psychotic hallucinations”, that would be modded immediately. However, it is not the job of the board to police what someone _believes_. Expressing the idea that transgenderism is not real is an argument that should be allowed. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the basic idea Urbanredneck expressed should necessarily be off limits, any more than discussion of whether blacks are genetically inferior or Jews are really alien lizard people should be. But I think people wishing to make those cases should be expected to phrase their arguments in the most polite and respectful possible ways, and should be modded as necessary to ensure that they do so. If that has a chilling effect and prevents bigoted idiots from expressing themselves freely, no big loss. I can agree to a degree. I don’t think saying “transmen aren’t REAL men” qualifies. > [@Jragon](#): > > But that’s not what’s happening, people are straight up allowed to use really demeaning language, or deliberately misuse terms to muddy the conversation. Hell, people have made out and out jokes in trans threads and not gotten moderated even after reports, though it has gotten a little bit better. I would hope the moderators can take note and do a better job of policing hateful jokes inserted into discussions. As well as nasty comments, or demands to know about a person’s genitalia, etc. I do appreciate the information and perspective you provide. > [@Pantastic](#): > > OK, so from this thread it sounds like the board is fine with asserting that someone is not a real man or woman. So it appears that it would be fine to respond to a poster saying ‘trans women aren’t real women, they just pretend to be’ with ‘men who don’t respect gender identity aren’t real men’. Or is questioning the realness of someone’s gender only allowed if they are trans, and questioning whether a cis person is a real man or woman is strictly against board rules? I think you’re equivocating on the use of the word “real”. I think saying that is fine, just like saying “a man who hits women isn’t a REAL man” or whatever. It’s a value judgement, but we allow value judgements if they aren’t addressed to board users. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/185 "2019-10-27T17:12:02Z")
It is incredibly amazing that on this board with all the info that’s been put out that there are still people who are mentally frozen into the discrete, purely binary view on gender. There’s a lot of “fuzziness” out there. Not every person can be slotted into one of exactly two groups. \* So fixating on doing exactly that is baffling. Also, pushing your _limited_ viewpoint over that of the individuals involved is “being a jerk” at the very least. No need to debate whether it’s hate speech. - I’ve mentioned my all time most memorable example here several times. A person named “Toby” who appeared on Larry King a long, long time ago. Looked female at birth. Raised as a girl. During adolescence things weren’t changing as expected. Turns out Toby was chromosomally a guy. Tried living as a guy for a while. Got married to a woman\*\*, got divorced. Finally just gave up trying to choose an specific gender. Has problems many others don’t. Can walk around in a men’s swimsuit no problem at the beach. (No breasts or other female aspects.) But go into the men’s dressing room and use a shower? (No male genitalia.) That’s something else entirely to the “two and only two, fixed forever” types. \*\* Which would violate some anti-trans laws since the birth certificate said female. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/186 "2019-10-27T17:59:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The novelty of that definition of men suggests that you made it up as a petty “no you” response, rather than it being a sincere argument. I mean, it is possible that you define the male gender such that people who do not respect gender identity cannot be male. It doesn’t pass the smell test, but I suppose it is possible if you are serious about redefining the male gender in such a way First of all, I did not say anything about defining ‘the male gender’. I specifcally made a comment about whether someone is a ‘real man’ or not, and did not use either the words ‘male’ or ‘gender,’ so discussion about ‘define the male gender’ is irrelevant and smacks of an attempt at misdirection. It is not at all novel to refer to someone who engages in activity that one considers reprehensible to be ‘not a real man’, and there are lots of people who actively argue against some of the standard conditions to ‘not be a real man’ [Teaching Our Sons to Be Good Men](https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/teaching-our-sons-to-be-good-men.html) is an example of that usage that I found on a quick google search, and it is not at all uncommon. I can damn well argue for what I consider to be a ‘real man’, and if you tell me that I don’t consider it that, you’re breaking board rules by accusing another poster of lying. What doesn’t pass the smell test is your attempt to pretend I said something I didn’t. It’s kind of absurd to do that when my original post is right there. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Under a definition of man=adult male human and woman=adult female human, saying that someone isn’t actually an adult male human because they don’t “respect gender identity” is nonsensical. Under a definition of man = a ham sandwich and woman = a bowl of petunias, it’s also nonsensical. I’m not sure how that’s relevant to what I asked and the mods have thus far declined to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/187 "2019-10-27T18:14:38Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Not every person can be slotted into one of exactly two groups. [Great article on the topic](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2018/10/28/sex-in-humans-may-not-be-binary-but-its-surely-bimodal/). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/188 "2019-10-27T21:40:12Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Also, pushing your _limited_ viewpoint over that of the individuals involved is “being a jerk” at the very least. No need to debate whether it’s hate speech. That’s the most infuriating part of this issue where I’m concerned. Like, trans, non binary etc… people live with that **every day** and I guaranfuckingtee they’ve spent a lot more time and effort and philosophy than any normie thinking about gender, researching the issues, exploring their own feelings, discussing them and trying to pin down where their space lies. But nope, “urrr durr I don’t think you’re that, so that’s settled, snowflake”. The sheer arrogance is unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/189 "2019-10-27T22:56:47Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Also, pushing your _limited_ viewpoint over that of the individuals involved is “being a jerk” at the very least. No need to debate whether it’s hate speech. Good point. Something does not have to rise to being declared “hate speech” to be found to be unacceptable in the forum. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/190 "2019-10-27T23:01:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s the most infuriating part of this issue where I’m concerned. Like, trans, non binary etc… people live with that **every day** and I guaranfuckingtee they’ve spent a lot more time and effort and philosophy than any normie thinking about gender, researching the issues, exploring their own feelings, discussing them and trying to pin down where their space lies. > But nope, “urrr durr I don’t think you’re that, so that’s settled, snowflake”. The sheer arrogance is unbelievable. I disagree that people using language as it has been used is hate speech. You are bound to offend someone if a discussion involves gender and sport or pay or life expectancy or behavior. Not being able to discuss issues without he fear of being hauled off to jail for hate speech is much more troubling than hurt feelings. ---
**Author:** ![SOJA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SOJA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SOJA)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/191 "2019-10-27T23:07:50Z")
I’ll call people whatever they want to be called, but my opinion and one I keep to myself except having to explain myself here is that unless you’ve changed your chromosomes, you’re still biologically your birth gender. Surgery or and the use of drugs to help you feel who you believe you should have been deep inside is fine if it makes you happy. Don’t care what others think about you. I heavily side with science on many matters but I’ve never heard of something that changes every facet of biology which would include manipulating chromosome counts. Again, personally speaking, I don’t see why this is even being contested or debated so much. Someone who feels they’re the opposite gender or non-binary which I guess what “houseplant” on the first page was referring to isn’t any of my business. I’m trying to live my own life and I don’t have the energy to give a shit about someone else’s who isn’t blood related let alone immediate family. Why would I care what strangers want or whether two chicks or two dudes want to bang each other for life? There’s some weird shit with humanity that loves to encroach on the lives of others. Just be you and mind your own damn business. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/192 "2019-10-28T04:12:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I disagree that people using language as it has been used is hate speech. You are bound to offend someone if a discussion involves gender and sport or pay or life expectancy or behavior. Not being able to discuss issues without he fear of being hauled off to jail for hate speech is much more troubling than hurt feelings. Go away. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/193 "2019-10-28T04:41:37Z")
I’m just wondering why these few people on the Board are so desperate to continue their ability to trivialize, marginalize, and (ultimately) dehumanize these people. Whether you understand it or not, trangenderism is real, and anyone with even the smallest amount of respect for one’s fellows should respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/194 "2019-10-28T04:59:43Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > I’m just wondering why these few people on the Board are so desperate to continue their ability to trivialize, marginalize, and (ultimately) dehumanize these people. Whether you understand it or not, trangenderism is real, and anyone with even the smallest amount of respect for one’s fellows should respect that. I find that those who attempt to trivialize others whom they cannot understand have a trivial view of themselves, and thus do what they do to bolster their image of themselves. I don’t know if that’s the correct way of saying it, nor do I know the sociologicial or psychological theories, if any, relating to it. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/195 "2019-10-28T05:10:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I find that those who attempt to trivialize others whom they cannot understand have a trivial view of themselves, and thus do what they do to bolster their image of themselves. I don’t know if that’s the correct way of saying it, nor do I know the sociologicial or psychological theories, if any, relating to it. A bit more colloquially, I find that there’s some folks so “small” they have to stand on others to make themselves feel bigger. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/196 "2019-10-28T10:41:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not being able to discuss issues without he fear of being hauled off to jail for hate speech is much more troubling than hurt feelings. There’s a fine line between Thought Police and Figment-of-your-Imagination Police. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/197 "2019-10-28T13:23:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Go away. I don’t think I will. The purpose of labeling speech hate speech is to criminalize it. And you obviously can’t even address the relevance of actual issues of the day that sanctioning speech for ideological reasons would prevent. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There’s a fine line between Thought Police and Figment-of-your-Imagination Police. I’d provide a cite of people being arrested over speech but I know you have google and can do your own homework l ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/198 "2019-10-28T13:28:16Z")
Go away. You are arguing in bad faith. We know your game. We don’t wanna play. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/199 "2019-10-28T13:31:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Go away. You are arguing in bad faith. We know your game. We don’t wanna play. You know where the report button is. Use it if you are sincere with your veiled accusation of trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-board-consider-explicit-transphobia-hate-speech/842204/200 "2019-10-28T14:44:42Z")
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