# Will the choice of Paul Ryan as VP doom Florida for Romney? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 11, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161 "2012-08-11T04:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/61 "2012-08-11T14:47:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It is fair to characterize Ryan’s plan as “ending Medicare as we know it” IMO, but don’t start whining when Ryan characterizes the ACA as “cutting Medicare by $500 billion”. We can either conduct this debate under ultra precise terms, or we can use the looser language more typical of a campaign. This meme has been in play for a while. My father, a senior, is always asking me about stuff like this and why Obama is attacking seniors. There are plenty of lies out there to go around. Most of the ones I see come as right wing distortions. Then Republican backers complain when the same is done to them. Unfortunately there will never be a way to legislate truth. ---
**Author:** ![nogravity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@nogravity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogravity)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/62 "2012-08-11T14:47:45Z")
There’s a lot of morons in Florida who will vote Republican no matter what. However, with that said, State Senator Mike Haridopolos, blew his chance at running for US Senate just because he couldn’t answer on a conservative talk radio show how he would vote on the Ryan plan last year. The host actually hung on him and Haridopolos went from front runner to has been in that moment. > [@](#): > > “But do you vote yes or no on the Ryan plan?” the host, Ray Junior, wanted to know. “I’ve got a no-spin area here.” > > “I’m not going to get into that today,” Haridopolos replied. “I don’t have all the information to make a decision on that yet.” > > “How could you possibly not have all the information?” Ray Junior replied. “You’re running for Senate… How could you possibly be running for Senate and not know what’s in the Ryan plan?” > > The two went back and forth a few more times before Ray Junior finally gave up. “Get him off my phone. I don’t want to have anything to do with this guy. Get rid of him,” he told his producers. [Linky](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/01/mike-haridopolos-radio-paul-ryan-budget_n_869658.html) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/63 "2012-08-11T14:49:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Um, because it only cuts the deficit over the next ten years by 10%. We’re $9 trillion in the hole. THe bush tax cuts for the rich will only raise $700-$900 billion. [The Congressional Budget Office disagrees with you.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/22/a-do-nothing-congress-could-solve-deficit-woes-cbo/?page=all) Now, again, why is restoring taxation on the free-riders who have failed at their task of “job creation” over the past decade not one of the options you describe as “responsible”? :dubious: And, again, why do you think cutting benefits for those who actually \*have \*worked for them and \*do \*depend on them will be a good sell for your team? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/64 "2012-08-11T14:53:36Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > This meme has been in play for a while. My father, a senior, is always asking me about stuff like this and why Obama is attacking seniors. There are plenty of lies out there to go around. Most of the ones I see come as right wing distortions. Then Republican backers complain when the same is done to them. Unfortunately there will never be a way to legislate truth. In neither case are there lies though. $500 billion in Medicare “savings” is cuts. The defense is that it doesn’t cut Medicare, it slows its growth. yet any Republican plan to slow growth in any program is characterized as a cut. By DC definitions, it is quite fair to say that the Democrats cut Medicare. And by the Democrats’ definition of what they believe Medicare to be, it’s fair to say that Ryan is ending Medicare as we know it. I’d prefer a more precise debate, but politics doesn’t lend itself to long-winded explanations. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/65 "2012-08-11T14:54:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [The Congressional Budget Office disagrees with you.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/22/a-do-nothing-congress-could-solve-deficit-woes-cbo/?page=all) > > Now, again, why is restoring taxation on the free-riders who have failed at their task of “job creation” over the past decade not one of the options you describe as “responsible”? :dubious: > > And, again, why do you think cutting benefits for those who actually \*have \*worked for them and \*do \*depend on them will be a good sell for your team? That doesn’t say what you think it says. The “doing nothing” plan involves ALL the Bush tax cuts expiring and the Medicare reimbursements going down by 60%. that’s a huge Medicare cut. If that’s the Democratic plan, that’s a good plan, actually. but it’s not their plan. They oppose both middle class tax increases and Medicare provider cuts. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/66 "2012-08-11T14:58:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I had no idea Natalie was interested in being Vice-President. I thought I read that she was a democrat, tho. And I heard she was born in Jerusalem, fewer than 36 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/67 "2012-08-11T15:11:03Z")
I have no idea what effect the Ryan pick will have in Florida, but knowing how essential the state is to their chances (it is essential, isn’t it?), it seems to me the Romney campaign must have had a damn good reason for making this decision. IOW, I don’t think the decision makers in the campaign under any circumstance think Florida can just be written off, as others seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/68 "2012-08-11T15:12:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As far as I can tell Congressman Ryan isn’t an Objectivist-he’s Catholic according to Wiki. There are plenty of religious people who admire Ayn Rand as much as non-Christians admire Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or non-Hindus admire Mahatma Ghandi. I forget which page of _Letter from a Birmingham Jail_ has Dr. King express the view that non-Christian faiths cause the adherent to “become an abject zombie”, and I can’t seem to find the passage in _The Story of My Experiments With Truth_ where Gandhi accuses non-Hindu religions of “running a protection racket”… ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/69 "2012-08-11T15:22:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Responsibility means having a plan to deal with the entitlement problem. Show me the Democrats’ plan, and we’ll talk about responsibility. > > Are they going to raise taxes on working people? Cut benefits? Or cut other spending down to the bone so that we are investing in our past rather than our future? Dealing with the entitlement problem does not mean handing the over the medical needs of the elderly to the whims of the private sector. Romney has firmly made it clear with this pick that he wants to raise taxes on the working class, cut their safety nets and hand his class more money. This pick only reinforces why I see no reason to vote for him yet again. My 77 year old father in Nevada was sort of meh on Romney before. He hates him now. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/70 "2012-08-11T15:22:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’ll see your Florida and raise you Arizona. What the Ryan pick does is write off Florida. Those seniors do not want their Medicare threatened. Now the Ryanites tried to calm the waters by saying to seniors “we’re not going to fuck _you_ over, we’re going to fuck _your kids_ over when they get to be your age.” I don’t think that will sell, seniors know that Republicans hate Medicare like they’ve always hated Social Security. Color Florida blue, it’s over. Even seniors who don’t give a crap about anybody else can recognize an obvious divide-and-conquer ploy (make targeted cuts to a program, slice off the targeted part of its constituency, strengthen your political position to impose the next round of cuts, lather-rinse-repeat). The offered “guarantee” is like Matrix’s promise in Commando to kill Sully last (and, yes, the fact that this promise was broken in the movie is an intentional component of my analogy). > [@](#): > > Obama wins easily, and you can now put Arizona with its sizable senior population in play. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/71 "2012-08-11T15:24:25Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > ETA: What’s unclear to me is how the Rand/atheist issue will play out among the evangelicals. I’m guessing it won’t make a difference, but I’m not sure. Ryan is a huge fan of Ayn Rand: he gives _Atlas Shrugged_ to his staffers with instructions to study it. Ryan’s also a devout Catholic. So, I’m guessing it’ll either be a non-issue, or the right will just deal with it with the usual cognitive dissonance they employ in these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/72 "2012-08-11T15:26:31Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I have no idea what effect the Ryan pick will have in Florida, but knowing how essential the state is to their chances (it is essential, isn’t it?), it seems to me the Romney campaign must have had a damn good reason for making this decision. The reason for the decision is obvious – Romney is in deep trouble with the hardcore conservative base of the party, and needs to mend fences with them somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/73 "2012-08-11T15:29:40Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I have no idea what effect the Ryan pick will have in Florida, but knowing how essential the state is to their chances (it is essential, isn’t it?) Seems pretty darn essential to me. If Florida goes to Obama and Obama can pick up just one of the 10 remaining swing states, the only way Romney can win is if he picks up Ohio or PA and ALL of the remaining swing states. ---
**Author:** ![nogravity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@nogravity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogravity)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/74 "2012-08-11T15:32:06Z")
Ryan’s already walked back the statement that he’s a devotee of Ayn Rand. So he’s got that covered. It was just something he got into as a kid. So nothing to see here. > [@](#): > > “I, like millions of young people in America, read Rand’s novels when I was young. I enjoyed them,” Ryan says. [Ryan not Randist](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297023/ryan-shrugged-robert-costa?pg=1) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/75 "2012-08-11T15:36:57Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Seems pretty darn essential to me. If Florida goes to Obama and Obama can pick up just one of the 10 remaining swing states, the only way Romney can win is if he picks up Ohio or PA and ALL of the remaining swing states. Absolutely. My question was rhetorical. I’ve long thought that if Florida is called for Obama, it’s bedtime. ---
**Author:** ![nogravity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@nogravity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogravity)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/76 "2012-08-11T15:43:26Z")
[PollTracker](http://polltracker.talkingpointsmemo.com/contests/fl-president-12) shows for Florida as Obama 48.2% and Romney at 45.1%. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/77 "2012-08-11T15:50:01Z")
As much as **adaher** wants to turn another thread into a debate on budget plans, let me offer a political comment: Paul Ryan very much strikes me as the Jack Kemp of this decade. Lots of ideas, energetic, and smart. I think Kemp had a couple advantages in that he was somewhat more charismatic, plus he played in the NFL. People could relate to that. But in the end, Kemp didn’t help Dole at all. I think there are remarkably few undecided voters this year, and I just have a hard time seeing this pick changing people’s minds. In fact, I’m not sure there is a VP pick that would generate a lot of momentum for Romney. I’m going to lay out a prediction here: over the next week, polls will remain pretty much as they are (Obama up nationally by roughly 4), and by the end of the conventions, we’ll pretty much be at the same place. Let’s see just how good a prognosticator I really am. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/78 "2012-08-11T15:54:20Z")
I don’t put much faith in the VP choice being a deciding factor. You may think Palin was damaging to McCain but I don’t think any other VP choice would have swung the election. Look at Quail. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/79 "2012-08-11T16:11:49Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I don’t put much faith in the VP choice being a deciding factor. You may think Palin was damaging to McCain but I don’t think any other VP choice would have swung the election. Look at Quail. “Look at Quayle”? It’s early, I’m nowhere _near_ drunk enough to try to relive that… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161/80 "2012-08-11T16:22:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because I stated a theory that the rationale for the pick is the ROmney/Ryan team’s superior leadership record. > > “We make tough, unpopular choices, but that’s better than just kicking the can down the road.” > > Or to shorten it to a campaign slogan, “Willing to lead.” That the blind are willing to lead the blind should is not a good slogan to live by. > **[On Mitt Romney and whether humans are causing climate change](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/15/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-and-whether-humans-are-causing-climate/)** > > Do humans contribute to global warming? There’s been a robust debate over whether Mitt Romney has flip-flopped on this q > [@](#): > > A voter asked Romney, “What is your position on man-made global warming and would you reject legislation, such as cap and trade, which is based on the idea of man-made global warming?” > > "My view is that we don’t know what’s causing climate change on this planet. And the idea of spending trillions and trillions of dollars to try to reduce CO2 emissions is not the right course for us. [http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/08/11/677051/meet-paul-ryan-climate-denier-conspiracy-theorist-koch-acolyte/](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/08/11/677051/meet-paul-ryan-climate-denier-conspiracy-theorist-koch-acolyte/) > [@](#): > > Paul Ryan Promoted Unfounded Conspiracy Theories About Climate Scientists. In a December 2009 op-ed during international climate talks, Ryan made reference to the hacked University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit emails. He accused climatologists of a “perversion of the scientific method, where data were manipulated to support a predetermined conclusion,” in order to “intentionally mislead the public on the issue of climate change.” Because of spurious claims of conspiracy like these, several governmental and academic inquiries were launched, all of which found the accusations to be without merit. [Paul Ryan, 2/11/09] > > Paul Ryan Argued Snow Invalidates Global Warming Policy. In the same December 2009 op-ed, Ryan argued, “Unilateral economic restraint in the name of fighting global warming has been a tough sell in our communities, where much of the state is buried under snow.” [Paul Ryan, 2/11/09] > > Paul Ryan Voted To Eliminate EPA Limits On Greenhouse Pollution. Ryan voted in favor of H.R. 910, introduced in 2011 by Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI) to block the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gas pollution. [Roll Call 249, 4/7/11] > > Paul Ryan Voted To Block The USDA From Preparing For Climate Change. In 2011, Ryan voted in favor of the Scalise (R-LA) Amendment to the FY12 Agriculture Appropriations bill, to bar the U.S. Department of Agriculture from implementing its Climate Protection Plan. [Roll Call 448, 6/16/11] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-choice-of-paul-ryan-as-vp-doom-florida-for-romney/631161.md?page=5)