# will the decreasing of the western population be the end of our civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912 "2006-05-23T15:51:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/21 "2006-05-23T19:01:40Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] by the way: how large part of USAs population is White, afro-american, latino, and asian? [/QUOTE] > **[Race and ethnicity in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_demographics_of_the_United_States)** > > The United States has a racially and ethnically diverse population. At the federal level, race and ethnicity have been categorized separately. The most recent United States census recognized five racial categories (White Americans, Black Americans, Native American/Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander), as well as who belong to two or more of the racial categories. The United States also recognizes the broader notion of ethnicity. While previous censuses inq White Am... ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/22 "2006-05-23T19:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] some say it can lead to civil war here in Europe [/QUOTE] An utterly preposterous idea. Sure, you might have enough unassimilated Muslims to **riot.** We had the LA riots here a few years back but it didn’t lead to a race war. It will be decades before European Muslims form a group large enough for civil war to be a serious prospect, and by then they will be too well assimilated to want such a war. More importantly, they’ll be too thoroughly integrated into your economy to want to rock the boat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/23 "2006-05-23T19:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] according to UN it wont be that low [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/24 "2006-05-23T19:18:21Z")
Why isn’t Latin America considered “western”? These are people that speak european languages (spanish or portuguese) and follow european religions (roman catholic, in the main). While many people from latin america are of mixed european and american ethnicity, how are they non-western? I always find it funny that Pat Buchanan can’t see Mexicans as co-religionists. It would be one thing if the man was protestant and worried about the Papists taking over. But he’s Catholic, for crying out loud! ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/25 "2006-05-23T19:24:43Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Why isn’t Latin America considered “western”? These are people that speak european languages (spanish or portuguese) and follow european religions (roman catholic, in the main). While many people from latin america are of mixed european and american ethnicity, how are they non-western? [/QUOTE] That, and the dominant members of Latin American society are white, so they’ve got the whole trifecta. I don’t get it either. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/26 "2006-05-23T19:27:19Z")
> [@Minotaurus](#): > > No it’s just that our civilization have been created through houndreds of year from our history and that this our roots These “roots”, though, have themselves been profoundly influenced by non-western civilizations. For example, for thousands of years your Northern European ancestors (and mine) were illiterate polytheists using pre-Iron Age technology. Their civilization was drastically altered around 1500–2000 years ago with the introduction of, e.g., writing and Christianity, both originating in the Middle East. Subsequently they got paper from China, new foods, clothing, technology and livestock from India and Islamic Asia, new musical forms from the Middle East and Africa, and a whole host of other borrowings. Yes, what we call “western civilization” is distinct and unique. But it’s been built up over time from many cultural sources from all over the world, not just “western” ones. Sure, western cultures are going to change as their demographic mix alters, and as their numbers dwindle in proportion to non-western cultures (though as **BrainGlutton** says, the shift isn’t likely to be as drastic as you make out). And no doubt some features of western civilization will be lost or diluted that many of us value. But that’s just the way civilization works. Continual change and transformation is not the same thing as destruction. The idea that western civilization will somehow just “end”, in the sense of being fundamentally uprooted and replaced by something else, isn’t realistic. Especially in a time-frame of a mere 50–60 years. > [@Minotaurus](#): > > There are to my knowledge several civilisations in the world: the West, Japanese, Chinese, Islamic, Latino, and African That’s **way** too oversimplified, even on the big-picture level. Why would we lump an entire continent together as a single civilization (African)? Why would we consider the Roman Catholic, Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Latino cultures of the Western Hemisphere to be a separate civilization from “the West”, or Japanese to be separate from Chinese, if we don’t even consider India a separate civilization with its own place on the list? ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/27 "2006-05-23T19:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] I think the issue is that in several years, the number of people in non-Western countries will far eclipse the number of people in Western countries. Even today, most of the people on Earth live in Asia and the gap is increasing. Think about it: One out of every 3 humans is Chinese or Indian. [/QUOTE] We’d better heed Vizzini and remember never to get involved in a land war in Asia! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/28 "2006-05-23T19:38:28Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] For example, for thousands of years your Northern European ancestors (and mine) were illiterate polytheists using pre-Iron Age technology. Their civilization was drastically altered around 1500–2000 years ago with the introduction of, e.g., writing and Christianity, both originating in the Middle East. [/QUOTE] 'Scuse me? The indigenous people of Europe (e.g. the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Romans) had both writing and “Iron Age technology” well before the introduction of Christianity. The Celts may have lacked a system of writing of their own, but they quite cheerfully adapted the Roman alphabet for their purposes, and had quite a sophisticated civilization going before the Romans came along. You may even recall that Alexander the Great conquered some pretty big chunks of Asia. A little more respect for our pre-Christian Euro ancestors please. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/29 "2006-05-23T19:46:58Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] The question lies upon an assumption that non-western nations are uncivilized. The assumption is beneath contempt. Tris [/QUOTE] Who invited the hyper-sensitive guy? How exactly would Western civilization “end”? It will change and merge with other cultures and in 50 years time may be dramatically different from what it is today but there will always be people living in Europe and North America. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/30 "2006-05-23T19:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] 'Scuse me? The indigenous people of Europe (e.g. the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Romans) had both writing and “Iron Age technology” well before the introduction of Christianity. The Celts may have lacked a system of writing of their own, but they quite cheerfully adapted the Roman alphabet for their purposes, and had quite a sophisticated civilization going before the Romans came along. You may even recall that Alexander the Great conquered some pretty big chunks of Asia. A little more respect for our pre-Christian Euro ancestors please. [/QUOTE] Since when were Rome and Greece part of Northern Europe? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/31 "2006-05-23T19:54:13Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] But he’s Catholic, for crying out loud! [/QUOTE] As far as I can tell, that’s exactly what he’s Catholic for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/32 "2006-05-23T19:55:22Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] How exactly would Western civilization “end”? It will change and merge with other cultures and in 50 years time may be dramatically different from what it is today but there will always be people living in Europe and North America. [/QUOTE] There were people living in Western Europe continuously from 400 AD to 600 AD; nevertheless, during that period Roman civilization came to an end in the West. The European civilization that arose after the Dark Ages was something fundamentally different. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/33 "2006-05-23T19:59:17Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Since when were Rome and Greece part of Northern Europe? [/QUOTE] Since when did Northern Europe lack “iron age technology” and writing? Both were present well before the Christian era. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/34 "2006-05-23T20:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] [Quote=Kimstu] For example, for thousands of years your Northern European ancestors (and mine) were illiterate polytheists using pre-Iron Age technology. Their civilization was drastically altered around 1500–2000 years ago with the introduction of, e.g., writing and Christianity, both originating in the Middle East. [/quote] 'Scuse me? The indigenous people of Europe (e.g. the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Romans) had both writing and “Iron Age technology” well before the introduction of Christianity. The Celts may have lacked a system of writing of their own, but they quite cheerfully adapted the Roman alphabet for their purposes, and had quite a sophisticated civilization going before the Romans came along. You may even recall that Alexander the Great conquered some pretty big chunks of Asia. A little more respect for our pre-Christian Euro ancestors please. [/QUOTE] You have mis-read **Kimstu** ’s comments. Writing (from the Romans who got it (several generations removed) from Middle Eastern societies) and Christianity were each examples of the several separate kinds of changes introduced to **Northern** Europe from the Middle East. To that could be added agriculture, although the dates would go back a few more generations. (I agree that the “1500–2000 years ago” phrase was too recent for iron, but it is only off by a couple hundred years for writing and Christianity (for better or worse) is clearly not more than 2000 years old.) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/35 "2006-05-23T20:03:10Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] I live in Norther Europa and my ancestors came from there too [/QUOTE] He’s from a [moon of Jupiter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)). This explains so much… 😃 > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, western civilization will “end” in the sense that it’ll gradually morph into a form that a current resident would find uncomfortable. Heck, old people complain that this has happened even within their own lifetimes. Old people in pretty much every civilization that has ever been have done this. Civilizations change- that’s what they do. Some people are comfortable with those changes, some aren’t- that’s how people are. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/36 "2006-05-23T20:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Since when did Northern Europe lack “iron age technology” and writing? Both were present well before the Christian era. [/QUOTE] What examples of Nordic or Celtic writing can you provide prior to about the second century of the current era? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/37 "2006-05-23T20:09:12Z")
> [@Lonesome Polecat](#): > > The indigenous people of Europe (e.g. the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Romans) had both writing and “Iron Age technology” well before the introduction of Christianity. The Celts may have lacked a system of writing of their own, but they quite cheerfully adapted the Roman alphabet for their purposes, and had quite a sophisticated civilization going before the Romans came along. You may even recall that Alexander the Great conquered some pretty big chunks of Asia. A little more respect for our pre-Christian Euro ancestors please. **Miller** nailed this one [in preview: and so did **tomndebb**]—the Greeks, Etruscans and Romans were not the “Northern Europeans” of antiquity (and neither was the Macedonian Alexander the Great). I was simply pointing out that what **Minotaurus** considers to be his “indigenous” cultural heritage is in fact very different from the culture that his Germanic/Celtic ancestors in ancient Northern Europe actually practiced. If the Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Celts, etc., could adapt to a radically modified culture under the influence of immigrants, invaders and trade partners from the south and east, so can we. And the Etruscan, Roman and Greek alphabets are all ultimately derived from the Phoenician alphabet, itself a descendant of North Semitic alphabetic script. In other words, as I said, western civilization’s literacy, like its Christianity, is Middle Eastern in origin. You and **tomndebb** are right about my dates being off for Iron Age technology in N. Europe, though. Substitute “large-scale urbanization and agriculture” for “Iron Age technology”, however, and it’s approximately true. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/38 "2006-05-23T20:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > **[Race and ethnicity in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_demographics_of_the_United_States)** > > The United States has a racially and ethnically diverse population. At the federal level, race and ethnicity have been categorized separately. The most recent United States census recognized five racial categories (White Americans, Black Americans, Native American/Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander), as well as who belong to two or more of the racial categories. The United States also recognizes the broader notion of ethnicity. While previous censuses inq White Am... [/QUOTE] I find it very strange that people from Middle-East and North-Africa are labelled as white Americans ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/39 "2006-05-23T20:19:06Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] What examples of Nordic or Celtic writing can you provide prior to about the second century of the current era? [/QUOTE] There are examples of Nordic runes dating to at least the second century BCE. Celts didn’t have a system of writing unique to their language before the third century AD (at least to my knowledge) but some Celts were fluent in Latin and literate in that language well before the Xtian era; my understanding is that they sometimes adapted the Roman alphabet for use with their own languages. Writing was not unknown to these people. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/40 "2006-05-23T20:24:31Z")
[QUOTE=KimstuYou and **tomndebb** are right about my dates being off for Iron Age technology in N. Europe, though. Substitute “large-scale urbanization and agriculture” for “Iron Age technology”, however, and it’s approximately true.[/QUOTE] True, the Germans and Celts weren’t as sophisticated as the peoples of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. I just thought you went a little too far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912.md?page=3)