# will the decreasing of the western population be the end of our civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912 "2006-05-23T15:51:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/41 "2006-05-23T20:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] I find it very strange that people from Middle-East and North-Africa are labelled as white Americans [/QUOTE] Why? Under the racialist theories of the nineteenth century, everyone North of the Sahara was considered “Caucasian.” (Even today we have people fighting over whether Egyptian culture was “really” white or “really” black.) There are probably a few “Aryans” wandering around who consider people South and East of the Mediterranean to not be white, but in normal conversation, Libyans, Tunisians, Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians, and all the people around them are considered white. Metropolitan Detroit had a very large immigrant Lebanese community whom everyone thought was white until the WTC/Pentagon attacks. (The city of Dearborn spent the 1980s considering Middle Eastern immigrants to not be white, but that was a special case of mostly Syrian immigrants who were different because of their mosques whereas the earlier Lebanese were often Christian.) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/42 "2006-05-23T20:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] I find it very strange that people from Middle-East and North-Africa are labelled as white Americans [/QUOTE] Why? It all depends on where you draw the line. Some white nationalists wouldn’t consider me white. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/43 "2006-05-23T20:27:55Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] These “roots”, though, have themselves been profoundly influenced by non-western civilizations. For example, for thousands of years your Northern European ancestors (and mine) were illiterate polytheists using pre-Iron Age technology. Their civilization was drastically altered around 1500–2000 years ago with the introduction of, e.g., writing and Christianity, both originating in the Middle East. Subsequently they got paper from China, new foods, clothing, technology and livestock from India and Islamic Asia, new musical forms from the Middle East and Africa, and a whole host of other borrowings. Yes, what we call “western civilization” is distinct and unique. But it’s been built up over time from many cultural sources from all over the world, not just “western” ones. Sure, western cultures are going to change as their demographic mix alters, and as their numbers dwindle in proportion to non-western cultures (though as **BrainGlutton** says, the shift isn’t likely to be as drastic as you make out). And no doubt some features of western civilization will be lost or diluted that many of us value. But that’s just the way civilization works. Continual change and transformation is not the same thing as destruction. The idea that western civilization will somehow just “end”, in the sense of being fundamentally uprooted and replaced by something else, isn’t realistic. Especially in a time-frame of a mere 50–60 years. That’s **way** too oversimplified, even on the big-picture level. Why would we lump an entire continent together as a single civilization (African)? Why would we consider the Roman Catholic, Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Latino cultures of the Western Hemisphere to be a separate civilization from “the West”, or Japanese to be separate from Chinese, if we don’t even consider India a separate civilization with its own place on the list? [/QUOTE] I have the impression that the ancient cilvilizations that gave most impulses to Europe at a early stage was the Persian and the Egyptian - and later the islamic culture in the 11th-13th century India and China have never had much influence in Europe through history, mostly because of the distance. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/44 "2006-05-23T20:28:01Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] I find it very strange that people from Middle-East and North-Africa are labelled as white Americans [/QUOTE] Since all racial labels are pretty arbitrary, what else would you call them? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/45 "2006-05-23T20:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] There are examples of Nordic runes dating to at least the second century BCE. Celts didn’t have a system of writing unique to their language before the third century AD (at least to my knowledge) but some Celts were fluent in Latin and literate in that language well before the Xtian era; my understanding is that they sometimes adapted the Roman alphabet for use with their own languages. Writing was not unknown to these people. [/QUOTE] The second century BCE is within the “couple of hundred years” of the 2000 year cut-off that I mentioned (and I am curious because I have never encountered a citation of runic inscriptions that predated the second century CE). Anyone fluent in Latin was borrowing from the Romans who had borrowed from the Etruscans who had borrowed from the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/46 "2006-05-23T20:31:08Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Why isn’t Latin America considered “western”? [/QUOTE] I think it’s mostly because they don’t see them selves a western ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/47 "2006-05-23T20:35:35Z")
[QUOTE=Minotaurus] India and China have never had much influence in Europe through history, mostly because of the distance. [/QUOTE] Well, aside from paper and gunpowder and mathematics (zero, algebra), and metallurgy and spices and a couple dozen other minor details, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/48 "2006-05-23T20:36:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Cite? [/QUOTE] > **[United Nations Maintenance Page](https://maintenance.un.org/)** ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/49 "2006-05-23T20:40:09Z")
> [@Lonesome Polecat](#): > > There are examples of Nordic runes dating to at least the second century BCE. Yeah, but are they actually used to graphically represent **language** at that point, or are they just a very limited system of esoteric symbols standing for a fairly small set of concepts? It was my understanding that Northern European runes remained a non-linguistic sign system of this sort until the introduction of literacy with the Roman alphabet. After the northern peoples’ exposure to Latin literacy, the indigenous runes were also sometimes used as a phonetic script to represent language. But prior to that, the runes don’t count as writing _per se_. > [@Minotaurus](#): > > India and China have never had much influence in Europe through history, mostly because of the distance. Well, I suppose it depends on what you call “much influence”. I’d consider, say, paper, pepper, and the decimal place-value numerals to have played fairly influential roles in European history and culture. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/50 "2006-05-23T20:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, aside from paper and gunpowder and mathematics (zero, algebra), and metallurgy and spices and a couple dozen other minor details, of course. [/QUOTE] Hmm… correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought algebra was largely an invention of the Arabs, not India … perhaps you’re thinking of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/51 "2006-05-23T20:42:34Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, aside from paper and gunpowder and mathematics (zero, algebra), and metallurgy and spices and a couple dozen other minor details, of course. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget silk, imported to Europe at least as far back as Roman times … ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/52 "2006-05-23T20:44:56Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] But that’s just the way civilization works. Continual change and transformation is not the same thing as destruction. The idea that western civilization will somehow just “end”, in the sense of being fundamentally uprooted and replaced by something else, isn’t realistic. Especially in a time-frame of a mere 50–60 years. [/QUOTE] but the changes are today very dramatically and going very fast. Especially when it comes to demography I feel there are a difference between impulses and invasion ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/53 "2006-05-23T20:49:41Z")
> [@Minotaurus](#): > > I think it’s mostly because they [Latin Americans] don’t see them selves [as] western They don’t? How you figure? > [@Lonesome Polecat](#): > > Hmm… correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought algebra was largely an invention of the Arabs, not India … perhaps you’re thinking of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system? You’re mostly right. Algebra in Indian texts pre-dates Arabic algebra but appears not to have been the source of it, except of course for passing on the decimal place-value (“Indo-Arabic”) numerals. The immediate sources of Arabic algebra seem to have involved a combination of indigenous tradition and Hellenistic _logistike_ derived from Greek sources such as Diophantos. But the subject is still very poorly understood, unfortunately. > [@Minotaurus](#): > > but the changes are today very dramatically and going very fast. Especially when it comes to demography Really? I mean, I’ve been living here in the Netherlands for nearly two years now and I have definitely not seen any indications of western civilization actually “coming to an end”. Changing, adapting, and resisting in various ways as a result of non-European immigrants, sure. But it’s a hell of a long way from there to absolute cultural extinction of the sort you seem to be postulating. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/54 "2006-05-23T20:52:23Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Hmm… correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought algebra was largely an invention of the Arabs, not India … perhaps you’re thinking of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system? [/QUOTE] Whew! [Boy, did I get that one wrong!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#History) But the mathematical learning of the Arabs was higher than Europe’s for quite some time, and they did teach us a thing or two about the subject … ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/55 "2006-05-23T20:52:32Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] He’s from a [moon of Jupiter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)). This explains so much… 😃 Old people in pretty much every civilization that has ever been have done this. Civilizations change- that’s what they do. Some people are comfortable with those changes, some aren’t- that’s how people are. [/QUOTE] but it’s not only old people longer I have the feeling that the west (and especially Europe) tries to swallow more history and changes than they can digest ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/56 "2006-05-23T20:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, aside from paper and gunpowder and mathematics (zero, algebra), and metallurgy and spices and a couple dozen other minor details, of course. [/QUOTE] While we are debating the past here, what is more important is how China and India will interact with Europe and the US in the future. When I was a grad student about a decade ago, I would go to some conferences and there was a mixture of nationalities. A couple of years ago I happened to attend one of these conferences and most of the participants were either Indian or Chinese. And the papers in many engineering journals also reflect this change. This will not have an effect today, but as more and more educated Chinese and Indians choose to return to their home countries, and thus help advance those countries, I think the effect will be felt in a few decades. There have been several articles about this, e.g. in the NYT, and some of the metrics are already starting to show a decrease in the technological leadership of the US. This is a slightly different issue than the OP, but this fleeing of whites from the sciences, accompanied by their decreasing numbers will make for a very different geopolitical picture on a few decades. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/57 "2006-05-23T21:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] And the Etruscan, Roman and Greek alphabets are all ultimately derived from the Phoenician alphabet, itself a descendant of North Semitic alphabetic script. In other words, as I said, western civilization’s literacy, like its Christianity, is Middle Eastern in origin. [/QUOTE] 90% of the european languages are Indoeuropean and have no relation to semitic languages Most european languages, kurdish, persian and urdu are part of the idoeuropean languages ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/58 "2006-05-23T21:12:31Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] This is a slightly different issue than the OP, but this fleeing of whites from the sciences, accompanied by their decreasing numbers will make for a very different geopolitical picture on a few decades. [/QUOTE] It’s a Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy! > **[Lothrop Stoddard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard)** > > Theodore Lothrop Stoddard (June 29, 1883 – May 1, 1950) was an American historian, journalist, political scientist and white supremacist. Stoddard wrote several books which advocated eugenics, white supremacy, Nordicism, and scientific racism, including The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy (1920). He advocated a racial hierarchy which he believed needed to be preserved through anti-miscegenation laws. Stoddard's books were once widely read both inside and outside the United Stat... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/59 "2006-05-23T21:19:09Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > This is a slightly different issue than the OP, but this fleeing of whites from the sciences That sounds to me like kind of an odd way of putting it. Are whites really “fleeing” from the sciences, or are they just becoming outnumbered by the more numerous Chinese and Indians as those nations boost their science education programs? US science and engineering graduate enrollments appear to be [rising even as the number of foreign students among them is falling:](http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf05317/) > [@](#): > > For the second consecutive year [in 2003], first-time, full-time enrollment declined among students with temporary visas and increased among U.S. citizens and permanent residents. And as far as I can tell, science and engineering graduate study has also been expanding in [Europe](http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind00/c4/c4s5.htm): > [@](#): > > S&E doctoral degrees in Germany grew faster than non-S&E doctoral degrees between 1975 and 1997. The number of S&E degrees increased 4.3 percent annually, engineering increased 5.0 percent annually, and non-S&E doctoral degrees increased 2.8 percent annually during this 22-year period. (See appendix table 4-28.) France undertook a reform of doctoral studies in 1988 in an effort to double the number and improve the quality of S&E doctoral degrees awarded within eight years. The effort has largely succeeded: the number of S&E doctoral degrees awarded in France increased from 5,000 in 1989 to 9,000 in 1997—more than an 83-percent increase (Government of France 1998a) So… “fleeing”? > [@Minotaurus](#): > > 90% of the european languages are Indoeuropean and have no relation to semitic languages > > Most european languages, kurdish, persian and urdu are part of the idoeuropean languages Yes, but **language** is not the same thing as **script**. European languages such as Greek and Latin weren’t descended from Middle Eastern Semitic languages, true (and I never said they were). But European scripts such as the Greek and Roman alphabets **were** derived ultimately from Middle Eastern scripts. And since literacy depends on having a script to read and write with, I stand by my statement that western civilization’s literacy, like its Christianity, is Middle Eastern in origin. ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912/60 "2006-05-23T21:32:11Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Really? I mean, I’ve been living here in the Netherlands for nearly two years now and I have definitely not seen any indications of western civilization actually “coming to an end”. Changing, adapting, and resisting in various ways as a result of non-European immigrants, sure. But it’s a hell of a long way from there to absolute cultural extinction of the sort you seem to be postulating. [/QUOTE] I’m not aganist immigration, but you must be blind why are the etnich dutch people moving out of their cities? Netherland have large problems with immigration and immigrants the last few years. I saw a documentary some 6 months ago and that showed that there where everything but harmony between etnich dutch and immigrants [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-decreasing-of-the-western-population-be-the-end-of-our-civilization/357912.md?page=4)