# Will the disparity of weath distribution destroy America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068 "2011-04-12T09:28:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/61 "2011-04-13T02:44:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah, 'cause there is abundant evidence that I never use shorthand for any other poster on this board… > > Oh, wait! In fact I do it all the time! 😛 > > -XT > [@xtisme](#): > > Thank you _Bo_…appreciate that **old boy** Free clue: he’s talking about the bolded bit, not the italicized bit. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/62 "2011-04-13T02:45:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Incorrect at the most basic level. You obviously have absolutely no understanding of how unions work or what constitutes a negotiated contract. This assertion is false. Who picks the salary of the union boss? Buzz Hargorve was doing fine for himself and wasn’t struggling to make ends meet. I also know what constitutes a general strike. If a union wants pay raises they vote to strike. Then everyone spends a couple weeks watching the garbage pile and eventually a contract is settled. So yes, I have a pretty good understanding. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/63 "2011-04-13T03:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=Zeriel] Free clue: he’s talking about the bolded bit, not the italicized bit. [/QUOTE] Ah…thanks. Sometimes you have to hit me in the forehead with a hammer to get through my thick skull. Especially when I’m reading this stuff on the go. I won’t do the ‘old boy’ thingy again, SB, if it upsets you. Sorry about that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/64 "2011-04-13T04:43:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > To be blunt: bullshit. > > The middle class in America emerged because following WWII the rest of the world was either broke, bombed to shit, or both. Combine that with the GI Bill and suddenly you get a huge population that gets free secondary education. It’s easy to pay an unskilled factory worked $50k a year when you have a near global monopoly on production. > > Meanwhile, all those broke and bombed out countries were forced to come up with other solutions. Instead of having everyone fend for themselves in some apocalyptic nightmare, they chose socialist policies to life everyone up equally. > > I can tell you from experience was it was like growing up in Canada waiting for the economy to grow, and what it was like to constantly have high unemployment and no prospects. I seriously doubt Americans have the patience. Even the American socialists demand change instantly. Although the UK, Japan and Germany were hit hard in WW2, I do not know if Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Scandanavian nations, etc were hit as badly. I don’t know how much of WW2 played a role vs the great compression that occured after FDRs policies. FWIW the US was also deeply in debt after WW2 too. In America we have no idea what high unemployment with no prospects feels like. Must be hell. I thought Canada was doing quite well nowadays, even in this recession. Aside from the fact that the US doesn’t have universal health care, are we really that much weaker on the social safety net than other OECD nations? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/65 "2011-04-13T04:55:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Although the UK, Japan and Germany were hit hard in WW2, I do not know if Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Scandanavian nations, etc were hit as badly. I don’t know how much of WW2 played a role vs the great compression that occured after FDRs policies. FWIW the US was also deeply in debt after WW2 too. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia were fledgling economics following WWII. Small populations producing predominantly raw resources that were exported to the US, turned into something valuable, and then imported back. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In America we have no idea what high unemployment with no prospects feels like. Must be hell. Well, now you do. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I thought Canada was doing quite well nowadays, even in this recession. Canada survived the recession incredibly well and for the first time (ever?) has a lower unemployment rate than the US. Consider that for as long as I can remember Canada’s unemployment rate was always a couple of points higher than the US. It was slower to fall and faster to climb. When the US sneezed Canada got the flu. Our dollar was worth 67cents, and everything cost more. We’ve had a 7% national sales tax, on top of 8% provincial sales tax that only recently got lowered. Can you imagine paying 15% sales tax? The US freaked out at 9% unemployment, I grew up thinking that was normal. We used to make weekend road trips to Freeport, Maine, to buy clothes. Keep in mind our dollar was worth 67cents US, but it was still cheaper to load up a couple times a year, assuming you timed it right and filled up your tank on the other side of the boarder. A person making $10/hour was actually earning $6.70 USD per hour, and was better off buying stuff in the US. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Aside from the fact that the US doesn’t have universal health care, are we really that much weaker on the social safety net than other OECD nations? Not weaker, you just suck at it. There is _almost_ universal health care for everyone, except it’s all a patch work of programs spread out to different income groups and age demographics. Tons of welfare, social assistance, unemployment, subsidized housing, food stamps (SNAP), not to mention a massive system of privatized social programs. All built on the cheapest food and cheapest gas in the world. People in the US bitch that SNAP provides $4 per day for food, consider that food in Canada costs twice what you’re used to, and when I was in Australia it easily cost 3 times as much. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/66 "2011-04-13T08:24:24Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > It isn’t the disparity itself that will destroy America, it is that the standard of living is finally going to lower significantly for the vast majority of people, and continue to get lower each generation. As long as it stayed above a certain point, nobody cared much about disparity. Citizens of western nations say that Chinese and Indians – indeed all people – are equal. Yet they want to be paid x1000 more. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/67 "2011-04-13T09:53:11Z")
The trouble with the global economy and huge multinational corporations is often a branch has to “go out of business” in the interest of profits. This time around it is entire countries that have to “be closed”. So what happens when it is good capitalist common sense to “close” a nation with millions of people deprived of living wages. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/68 "2011-04-13T12:43:44Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > We’ve had a 7% national sales tax, on top of 8% provincial sales tax that only recently got lowered. Can you imagine paying 15% sales tax? Spare a thought for those of us in the UK who are currently paying 20% VAT (the equivalent of sales tax). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/69 "2011-04-13T13:59:40Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Citizens of western nations say that Chinese and Indians – indeed all people – are equal. Yet they want to be paid x1000 more. Funny how that works. Part of the problem with the ideal of equalizing global incomes is that the historical disparity produces very, very strange cost-of-living effects. On one hand, high-end stuff sold internationally probably costs pretty close to the same–things like new cars and electronics cost the same to build, ship, and sell pretty much anywhere. On the other hand, I doubt people in China and India would be paying US$250,000 for a 3-bedroom 1000-sq-foot house in a medium-sized town (price sourced from walking around my neighborhood :p), or $35 for a shirt and $40 for jeans. Primarily because land costs are always going to be very closely tied to what the locals can pay. Interestingly, the US is “only” hovering a little over 4x (47k) the world average (11k) for adjusted GDP(PPP) per capita (sourced from World Bank/IMF). China is about 70% of the average (7.5k) , India is about 30% of the average (3.3k). When you use non-adjusted nominal GDP, you get 47k, 4.4k, and 1.2k respectively, which look much worse but don’t probably tell the whole story–the story they DO tell indicates that there’s a significant cost-of-living adjustment that has to happen across the board before/in conjunction with any movement of average income towards a global average. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/70 "2011-04-13T14:00:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > We’ve had a 7% national sales tax, on top of 8% provincial sales tax that only recently got lowered. Can you imagine paying 15% sales tax? Man, it’d be worth it if we straightened the hell out a decent universal healthcare system. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/71 "2011-04-13T14:00:52Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Spare a thought for those of us in the UK who are currently paying 20% VAT (the equivalent of sales tax). And yet we persist. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/72 "2011-04-13T14:04:33Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Man, it’d be worth it if we straightened the hell out a decent universal healthcare system. Did you know a sales tax disproportionately hurts the lower income bracket? If you straightened out your health care you wouldn’t need a 15% sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/73 "2011-04-13T14:36:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The haves/have-nots divide was even sharper in the old British Empire – even within the UK proper – but I have never heard it cited as a cause of the Empire’s fall. Currently Great Britain has a more equitable distribution of wealth and income than the United States, and a public health system. The British populace has a better understanding than the American populace that what benefits the rich seldom if ever benefits them. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/74 "2011-04-13T14:42:57Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Who picks the salary of the union boss? Buzz Hargorve was doing fine for himself and wasn’t struggling to make ends meet. > > I also know what constitutes a general strike. If a union wants pay raises they vote to strike. Then everyone spends a couple weeks watching the garbage pile and eventually a contract is settled. So yes, I have a pretty good understanding. Oh, you were talking about the union members who hold elected office in the union? the ones who have their pay set by an equally elected executive board, who (usually) can’t vote themselves pay raises, but can only vote to increase pay for a position effective after the next general election, and who are also accountable to all members who vote? Is that what you were talking about? Not every union is even allowed to engage in a strike, you know, at least not in the US. And many unions have contracts with “no-strike” clauses which further hinder such actions. You really don’t seem to know much about unions. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/75 "2011-04-13T15:00:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh, you were talking about the union members who hold elected office in the union? the ones who have their pay set by an equally elected executive board, who ( **usually** ) can’t vote themselves pay raises, but can only vote to increase pay for a position effective after the next general election, and who are also accountable to all members who vote? Is that what you were talking about? > > \*\*Not every \*\*union is even allowed to engage in a strike, you know, at least not in the US. And \*\*many \*\*unions have contracts with “no-strike” clauses which further hinder such actions. > > You really don’t seem to know much about unions. I like your use of the words usually/not every/many in trying to claim I don’t know **much** about unions. If seems that you don’t know **much** about unions either. Would it help if we went back through the thread and included those words when talking about CEOs? Or is it okay for people who don’t seem to know **much** about CEOs to continue telling us how **not every** CEO is over paid, and that **many** board of directors blah blah blah fuck it, CEOs are evil! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/76 "2011-04-13T15:05:53Z")
Karl Marx predicted growing inequality from capitalism, and he predicted that it would lead to a revolutionary situation, which in turn would lead to a more egalitarian economic order. He did not predict two things. First, he did not predict the Keynesian economic policies which until the recession of 1974 expanded America’s middle class. As those policies are being replaced by those advocated by Milton Friedman, Marx’s prediction of growing inequality are coming true again. Second, he did not predict is that when those of the dominant race and ethnicity are stressed economically many if not most are drawn to some form of right wing populism. During the Great Depression we in the United States were fortunate to have Franklin Roosevelt as president. The Germans had Hitler. If Roosevelt had been ineffective, or if the pre inaugural assassination attempt against him had been successful, and his vice president John Nance Garner had been unable to reduce the unemployment rate things in the United States would have gotten ugly. There have been times in the past in the United States when income inequality has increased. It happened during the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the 1920s, and the 1980s. During these times most people advanced somewhat economically. We have never experienced a time when the over all standard of living declined as the rich got richer. The eventual political effects are difficult to predict. So far, there has been a move to the right. Millions of Americans face long term unemployment with little or nothing in the way of a safety net. There is no mass movement of the unemployed. The mass movement is the Tea Party. The Tea Party demands that the government does nothing to help the unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/77 "2011-04-13T16:18:14Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I like your use of the words usually/not every/many in trying to claim I don’t know **much** about unions. If seems that you don’t know **much** about unions either. > > Would it help if we went back through the thread and included those words when talking about CEOs? Or is it okay for people who don’t seem to know **much** about CEOs to continue telling us how **not every** CEO is over paid, and that **many** board of directors blah blah blah > > fuck it, CEOs are evil! Sure go for it. You’ll note that I didn’t make those arguments. You want to argue with those people over their points, go right ahead. _My_ point is that the way you think unions conduct business isn’t very accurate. In fact, I doubt you could show me 2 unions in the US that allow their elected president to set his/her own salary. Heck, show me one. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/78 "2011-04-13T16:25:09Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > fuck it, CEOs are evil! Could you please cite where someone has said this? Alternately, you could cite the controls that are in place to prevent positive feedback loops in CEO compensation. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/79 "2011-04-13T16:27:39Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The mass movement is the Tea Party. The Tea Party demands that the government does nothing to help the unemployed. You know, your post was really well written and conveys and important message, it’s this last line that I need to quibble with. Not that I support the Tea Party, but there demand was to help the unemployed, at least initially. The difference was in the direction; it wasn’t about simply handing over [borrowed] cash, it was about freeing up capital and getting government out of the way so job creation could happen. There were people that wanted to start/expand business, and to them the government was obstructing that. It’s a pipe dream, but aren’t they all? The trickle down and trickle up seem to be equally ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068/80 "2011-04-13T16:36:02Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It’s a pipe dream, but aren’t they all? The trickle down and trickle up seem to be equally ineffective. So what ends up being the solution, other than “viciously managed economy”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-disparity-of-weath-distribution-destroy-america/578068.md?page=5)