# Will the EU eventually become a sovereign state? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401 "2016-06-26T14:18:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/1 "2016-06-26T14:18:41Z")
People in the EU refer to themselves as Europeans. They have their own Parliament. They have their own currency. They don’t recognize borders within member nations. (The Schengen Agreement) Now they want their own army. > **[Europe needs united army, EU parliament committee head urges after Brexit](https://www.rt.com/news/348429-europe-united-army-brexit/)** > > The idea of a common European military headquarters has been revived by the head of the European Parliament Committee on Foreign Affairs, shortly after the UK’s citizens voted in favor of Brexit. Is the EU well on its way to becoming a sovereign nation? Is it already a sovereign nation? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/2 "2016-06-26T14:28:17Z")
I slipped in the last sentence. Sovereign State not nation Et > **[Sovereign state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state)** > > A sovereign state is a state that has the highest jurisdiction over a territory. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory (see territorial disputes), a government not under another, and the capacity to interact with other sovereign states. It is also commonly understood that a sovereign state is independent. > According to the declarative theory of statehood, a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states. Unr... ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/3 "2016-06-26T14:42:57Z")
Yes. A very successful one, like Yugoslavia, in which there will be no social nor civil strife, and everyone will live happily forever after amongst their varied neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/4 "2016-06-26T15:32:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > People in the EU refer to themselves as Europeans. If you ask someone form Marseilles or Naples what they are, they’re not answering “Europeans”. > [@](#): > > They have their own Parliament. A parliament [whose own figures show only 42% of the populace bothered to vote for.](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2014-results/en/election-results-2014.html) It doesn’t seem much dissimilar for the U.S. being in NATO and part of NAFTA. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/5 "2016-06-26T16:17:27Z")
No. The EU just doesn’t have adequate popular support. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/6 "2016-06-26T17:04:58Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Yes. A very successful one, like Yugoslavia, in which there will be no social nor civil strife, and everyone will live happily forever after amongst their varied neighbors. And bound together with the common interests of Trade and Profit to keep the peace. Which has always worked so well for important trading partners. Like Germany and France. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/7 "2016-06-26T17:50:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > People in the EU refer to themselves as Europeans. Sometimes. > [@](#): > > They have their own Parliament. With very limited authority > [@](#): > > They have their own currency. Not used everywhere within the EU. > [@](#): > > They don’t recognize borders within member nations. (The Schengen Agreement) Not every country participates in the Schengen. > [@](#): > > Now they want their own army. > [https://www.rt.com/news/348429-europe-united-army-brexit/](https://www.rt.com/news/348429-europe-united-army-brexit/) No, “they” don’t. A few people do. From your own cite: > [@](#): > > A Pew poll has shown Europeans are weary of hard power and are reluctant to boost defense spending, despite the commitment to do so by their governments. > [@](#): > > Is the EU well on its way to becoming a sovereign nation? Is it already a sovereign nation? No, but with so many incorrect assumptions it’s not surprising you might think so. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/8 "2016-06-26T18:26:52Z")
There is far too much economic/wealth disparity between various EU states for a common currency to ever work out. I’m no economist and only vaguely understand the things I read about that. But it’s certainly discussed muchly among economists and policy-experts and op-ed writers. Paul Krugman has written op-eds about that many many times over the years in his NYT column. (Sorry, I didn’t see any obvious mentions in his page of recent links, other than Brexit-specific stuff.) His basic thesis is that integrated monetary/fiscal policies over the entire EU-wide region simply don’t work when you have such major economic disparities like you see between Germany (economically rich and powerful) versus Greece (economic basket case). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/9 "2016-06-26T18:41:08Z")
The EU seems to have very lofty goals. I’ve even heard people in interviews referring to themselves as EU citizens. LOL I checked and there is such a thing. > **[European Union citizenship](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union)** > > European Union citizenship is afforded to all citizens of member states of the European Union (EU). It was formally created with the adoption of the 1992 Maastricht Treaty, at the same time as the creation of the EU. EU citizenship is additional to, as it does not replace, national citizenship. It affords EU citizens with rights, freedoms and legal protections available under EU law. The information I’ve read about the EU is so different from other treaty organizations. The more I’ve read about it the EU sounded like it had grand aspirations to be a sovereign state. Thankfully unfulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/10 "2016-06-27T02:24:47Z")
It depends on what you mean by “sovereign state”. The EU already does lots of things that sovereign states do. It negotiates, signs and ratifies treaties with undoubted sovereign states (including the US). It exchanges ambassadors. It has citizens. It makes laws, which have effect in an identified territory. It issues currency. Etc, etc. Of course, there are things that other sovereigns do that the EU does not do. It doesn’t have an army, most obviously. But the main difference between your typical sovereign state and the EU is that the EU’s component entities are themselves internationally sovereign states, who make treaties, exchange ambassadors, maintain armies, etc. in a way that is not true for the component entities of the US, Canada, Australia, etc. So, as far as international law and politics go, the EU is unique. It shares a lot of the characteristics and functions of sovereign states, but in some respects it looks more like an international organisation. The EU’s own term to describe itself is “supranational”. It’s not a national entity, like other sovereign states; it’s not an international organisation, like the UNO or the WHO or UNESCO; it’s supranational. I think the only way it can become a conventional sovereign state is if the member states give up their international sovereign status. I don’t see that happening any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/11 "2016-06-27T03:39:58Z")
I think it’s entirely possible but maybe not in our lifetime. These things take time. I could see it in, say, 200-500 years, 1000 tops. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/12 "2016-06-27T04:13:23Z")
Maybe not in our lifetime (hey, some of us are old) but 200-500 years is far too large a time-scale. It could easily change in 50-100 years. The key to EU success is that everyone doesn’t want war any more, which was Europe’s most abiding traditional practice for most of the previous 19 centuries. WWII taught them a lesson – possibly the same lesson that the American Civil War taught the U.S. A loss of regional sovereignty and a centralized government is one of the best ways not to get into a war with your neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/13 "2016-06-27T04:17:26Z")
I think the differences between the member states and the language barriers will take longer than 50 years to work out satisfactorily. But maybe. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/14 "2016-06-27T05:33:11Z")
When the EU was put together, my impression was: Too Much, much Too Soon. Maybe in 4-5 generations (assuming France and Germany don’t go at it again), and maybe this “common” currency, Parliament, Bank, Travel Zone, etc. will sound natural to European ears; but now? Much, Much Too Soon. When the massive graveyards of WWII revert to weeds, all the pics get lost or destroyed, maybe then, the people’s Grandchildren can talk of being a “Single Entity”. I didn’t think the UK would actually lose its senses like this. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/15 "2016-06-27T08:11:37Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > When the EU was put together, my impression was: > > Too Much, much Too Soon. Maybe in 4-5 generations (assuming France and Germany don’t go at it again), and maybe this “common” currency, Parliament, Bank, Travel Zone, etc. will sound natural to European ears; but now? Much, Much Too Soon. > > When the massive graveyards of WWII revert to weeds, all the pics get lost or destroyed, maybe then, the people’s Grandchildren can talk of being a “Single Entity”. > > I didn’t think the UK would actually lose its senses like this. Bit of a chicken and egg situation here. The whole point of the European project has always been to prevent recurrence of war between the European states by insuring that their identities are so pooled, and their interests are so intertwined, as to make war between them all but impossible. Insisting that this objective must already be achieved before the project can get under way seems illogical. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/16 "2016-06-27T13:56:37Z")
To me seeing it as an outsider, the biggest problem with the EU is that it is neither here nor there. By that, I mean that it’s somewhat more than just a mostly overlapping combination of a customs union, common currency and free trade zones, but it’s not a real federal system either. The member nations seem to retain almost too much of their sovereignty for the union to really work like the folks in Brussels seem to want it to work, and it’s already considered too intrusive by some (UK, for example). And I’m not sure exactly how you’d get to a fully federal system either; I don’t see say… the Netherlands being willing to essentially take on the level of sovereignty of a US state, nor do I see France doing so either. Beyond that, if you did go fully federal, I’d imagine that the hodge-podge of not having exactly proportional representation by population would become very problematic, as it would give the smaller states outsized representation. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/17 "2016-06-27T14:51:44Z")
At least I _can_ see the EU eventually becoming one big country. The 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean) laughably likes to think of itself as an Asian version of the EU, but I can’t see them even having a common currency here, let alone become a single sovereign entity, not for a very long time indeed. That one may actually take 1000 years. There’s a lot of distrust and intrigue to this day. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/18 "2016-06-27T16:36:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The member nations seem to retain almost too much of their sovereignty for the union to really work like the folks in Brussels seem to want it to work, and it’s already considered too intrusive by some (UK, for example). Which also reflects how the different members, as the Union evolved from the Common Market, each saw different things in what were they putting into and getting out of it, while the professional Eurocrats seem to have their whole own vision of what it should be all about and that may not map to that of a majority of the members (or even of any!) at any given time. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/19 "2016-06-27T16:59:30Z")
> [@bump](#): > > To me seeing it as an outsider, the biggest problem with the EU is that it is neither here nor there. By that, I mean that it’s somewhat more than just a mostly overlapping combination of a customs union, common currency and free trade zones, but it’s not a real federal system either. The member nations seem to retain almost too much of their sovereignty for the union to really work like the folks in Brussels seem to want it to work, and it’s already considered too intrusive by some (UK, for example). > > And I’m not sure exactly how you’d get to a fully federal system either; I don’t see say… the Netherlands being willing to essentially take on the level of sovereignty of a US state, nor do I see France doing so either. Beyond that, if you did go fully federal, I’d imagine that the hodge-podge of not having exactly proportional representation by population would become very problematic, as it would give the smaller states outsized representation. I’ve been reading about the EU since the Brexit vote. I’m looking at as an outsider too. Trying to make sense of it. The EU has powers that just doesn’t make sense. The laws passed by the European Court of Justice for example really ticked off a lot of the Leave voters. Why would member nations want to follow EU laws? Each member nation already has their own laws. Immigration was another hot topic for Leave voters. The Euro has its critics. The EU is dabbling into all sorts of areas normally reserved for sovereign states. It’s so strange and I’m surprised the member nations ever allowed the EU to grow into these areas. Thankfully I don’t live in Europe or the UK. If people want to live under the EU then thats their choice. I’m thankful the US isn’t part of it. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401/20 "2016-06-27T17:11:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve been reading about the EU since the Brexit vote. I’m looking at as an outsider too. Trying to make sense of it. > > The EU has powers that just doesn’t make sense. The laws passed by the European Court of Justice for example really ticked off a lot of the Leave voters. Why would member nations want to follow EU laws? Each member nation already has their own laws. This doesn’t seem that different from asking ‘Why would Massachusetts or Virginia want to follow federal laws?’. And yet, both of them signed on to the Constitution, and on the whole it’s worked out pretty well. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-the-eu-eventually-become-a-sovereign-state/758401.md?page=2)